How to be "Bad": Finding Your Authentic Voice Through Nature And Sass

Being “too much” is often just another way the world tells women to be smaller. Mary Rothwell sits down with author and writing teacher Amy Lou Jenkins to trace how a strong, sassy voice gets mislabeled as “bad” and how reclaiming that voice can become a turning point for identity, safety, and self-respect. 

Amy shares vivid flashbulb moments from a volatile childhood, including an experience that forced her to choose self-protection over compliance. From there, we follow the thread that runs through her work: nature as a refuge and a teacher. We talk about what you learn when you slow down enough to observe real ecosystems, how diversity keeps systems alive, and why stepping away from constant social pressure can help you hear your authentic self again. Along the way, we connect resilience, trauma, boundaries, and the mental health benefits of nature to the creative act of turning lived experience into stories that matter.

We also get honest about feminism, why the word triggers such a strong reaction, and how history still shapes modern life through remnants of coverture, the legal doctrine that treated women as property under a father or husband. The takeaway is practical and hopeful: using your voice is personal, relational, and political, and you don’t have to do it perfectly to do it meaningfully.

If you enjoy thoughtful conversations about women’s empowerment, authentic voice, nature-based wisdom, and the hidden structures that shape our lives, follow and share this episode with a friend.

Transcript

Refusing To Shrink\n

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I get to be my best self. And, you know, I didn't realize that until, you know, my husband asked me, what do you want to do? I had never thought, what do I want to do? You know, and a lot of us are in survival mode, and all you can do is keep your hopes and dreams alive.

Tomboy Lessons And Female Rules\n

Mary 0:18

For centuries, the phrase shrinking violet was used to diminish women, to suggest we were meant to be small and meek. But in nature, violets are anything but weak. They're resilient, beautiful, and essential to the ecosystem. Hi, I'm Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist, and each week I sit down with women who remind us that being compared to a violet isn't an insult. It's a testament to strength, endurance, and the power of taking up space and living by your true nature. If you're ready to stop shrinking and start thriving, you're in the right place. Hey Violets, welcome to the show. Growing up, I was a tomboy. No two ways about it. At least that was the term used in my day. I was outside more than I was inside, and climbing trees and playing in the woods was my jam. My hair rarely saw a brush, and if it was summer, I had skin knees and dirty elbows. My mom also liked to tell people that I was fond of pulling the heads off my Barbie dolls. Fast forward to middle and high school. Being pretty perceptive, the trait that probably fueled my love of psychology, I recognized pretty quickly that tomboys weren't popular. In fact, they were seen as kind of weird. Add to that that I was first in my class academically, and that completed my image as the 80s movie version of the dork. I capitalized that. I adjusted by trying to tailor literally my love of flannel shirts and jeans into something more suitable to the ideal feminine role model and learn to only show how smart I was on tests and assignments, something only the teacher would see. I certainly didn't want to appear too smart in class. The lesson I had learned swiftly and with final T was that there is a correct way to be female, and it wasn't to be loud and independent. I mean, the perfume of my generation was love's baby soft. Need I say more? It wasn't until I saw my own struggles reflected in my female students that I really started to step into my own space and just be the woman I really am. Of course, it took wanting to be a role model to others that pushed me, but hey, whatever works. And if this isn't your first listen to my podcast, you know that it grew out of the same sentiment, encouraging women to take up space in their own unique way. So when Amy Lou Jenkins approached me about being a guest on my show, and I learned about her journey and her writing, I felt a connection. From her journey around feeling like she was too much to finding perspective from nature, her realization seemed akin to my own. Amy is an award-winning best-selling author, teacher, and advocate for authentic voice. She's published four books with another just completed and has written and published hundreds of essays, articles, and reviews. She has an MFA in writing and a background in nursing and communication. Amy helps readers and students uncover meaning in their lived experiences and transform those insights into stories that matter. Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, Amy.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Well, I am so happy to be here. I'm a native of Wisconsin. Our uh state flower is the wood violet, and I'm a fellow nerdy weirdo.

Flashbulb Moments From A Volatile Home\n

Mary 3:35

All right. I knew it. See, I knew we were gonna hit it all. So, and we won't mention cheese, right? Wisconsin. Well, we could, but we won't today. We can do a whole week to a whole episode on cheese. Okay, so I always start by having my guest talk about their flashball moments. And what I mean by that is if you look back over your life, those moments kind of captured in time where you recognize something changed. You had an insight, you learned something that maybe changed the trajectory of your life or brought you closer to where you are today. So, what are some of those flashbulb moments from your own life?

Old Hollywood Sass As Survival\n

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Um, well, I guess I'm gonna start with something heavy. You know, I hadn't prepared for this question, but I'm gonna start with something heavy. And although um nature guided me a lot um in my life, because I grew up in a volatile household. My parents were uh drinkers, and you know, if you know, if you live where you have authoritarian, violent people, you're always you don't want to flip that switch, whether it's in your house, it's your government, whatever it is, you don't want to flip that switch because you're you're vulnerable. And in our house, I went outside whenever I could, but my parents were drinkers, and they also took me to bars. And um in the house, I promise I'm gonna bring this back around. Our TV was always on because when I grew up we had tubes on the TV, and the TV repairmen said turning them on and off will um wreck the tubes, and that costs more money than the electricity, so you leave the TV on once somebody turned it on. So uh my house was volatile, I was quiet. When the house was quiet, the TV was always on, and I learned about sassy women like Joan Crawford and Betty Davis and Barbara Stanwyck, and they got themselves out of trouble by being bad. You know, they not that they were always doing the right thing, but these bad women. And I remember you can lie. I mean, I didn't, you can oh, and uh so one pivotal moment I realized was very pivotal for me is my parents left me in a bar. They were playing pool in the other room, and they left me at the bar, and they probably thought, well, there's nobody in the bar, but two very creepy men came in and were buying me sodas, which at first I thought, wow, I get all these sodas, but then they wanted me to kiss them, and they one was had like only half his teeth, and his mouth was putrid, and the young fellow next to him, I mean, he smelled like just a smell I had never smelled before, you know, like um, you know, he hadn't washed in a long time, very uh dirty in many ways. And they started putting their arm around me, and all of a sudden, these women came back to me. And I remembered seeing a movie with uh Humphrey Bogart where there was a hat check room. And in this bar, there was a hat check room, and there was a bathroom by it. And I just put on my best Betty Davis Southern Bell, convincing these men. And I said, Oh, don't touch my soda. I want to make sure to finish it. I have to run to the bathroom. And I ran to the bathroom and peeked around the corner, and then some men were coming in. And anyway, I ran out, and my parents had parked a travel trailer in the because we were camping, and I ran in and I locked the door, and I just saved myself by being bad because at first I thought I had to comply with what these men wanted. So it was the bad women of the old cinema virtually saved my life. And I'll give you another quick one. I became a nurse, um, and I created a program for disabled adults, uh mostly quadriplegic and paraplegic, because I didn't want them to live in nursing homes. I worked for a Christian nonprofit, and they came to me and I was the director, and they told me we're gonna close that program. It doesn't make any money. And I said, Well, what about our Christian mission? And they didn't care, they were gonna close the program. And I drove home crying. I was not gonna be a part of putting those people into the nursing home, and I knew I couldn't stop it. By the time I got home, my husband, who usually isn't home, was home, and I'm just sobbing, you know, big, ugly sobs, and what's wrong? And I'm like, you know, like a little kid and I can't get the words out. And finally I explained it to him, and he says, Well, what are you gonna do? And without thinking, no pre-misconceptions from the depth of my soul, I said, I'm gonna go back to school and study literature and writing. And he said, Then do that. So those are two of the moments that come to mind.

Mary 8:34

Wow. Okay, so let me go back to the first one. So, how old were you when this happened in the bar? I would guess I was eight. Okay. So it's interesting that you put a term on that, like bad, because to me, that was strong, that was um independent, that was having, you know, like you mentioned earlier, SAS. Right. But I think historically that was women that did those things, especially in that age when you're talking about Betty Davis, we did call them, you know, the bad women, the women, you know, that you don't um you don't marry, you don't often marry those women, right? You you know, so I think it's interesting that word bad, because now I would see that as very strong and something where you drew from that to get out of a situation that was really dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Well, in my mind, if I hadn't had those strong, let's call them strong women of the cinema, I think I'd be dead today because those are the only women that taught me that it was okay to save yourself and to put yourself first. So even when I locked my, I wasn't supposed to lock the door and it was hot. You can imagine a trailer, how hot it gets in a trailer. Um, I I then fell asleep. I actually had a knife and I had it under the cushion in the travel trailer in case they broke in because they rattled the door. They did, I mean, I could hear them saying, where'd she go? We have to get her, she's the right one. It was bad. And when my parents came, um, they were just mad I had locked the door, they just yelled at me all the way home. I never even told them it happened because I would they'd just get mad at me. So um I those bad sassy women and being sassy and having a strong voice, that's where I learned it. And the other place I learned it was by in nature.

Mary 10:35

Yes, and that is one of the things that I was so intrigued by because every anybody that listens to this podcast, even more than once, understands that that nature is my jam. And I really feel like it gives us lessons that we need because it doesn't apologize. We don't blame if we look at a plant, whether we're growing it outside or in our home, if it's wilting or struggling to grow, we don't say, I wonder what's wrong with the plant. Why is it not trying harder? But we're so quick to say that about ourselves. So tell me a little bit about when you talk about nature and how that's giving you lessons. Tell me a little about how that happened and what some of those, what did you learn from that?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Well, my interest in nature, nature really started just wanting to get away from the noise and the volatility in the house. So I didn't live very close to a natural area, but I would just get to the nearest park stream or whatever. And always interested in tearing apart and seeing what's in this leaf and why is that bird always by that tree at this time of year. And if what when you watch and you you figure out, oh, look, the goldfinch's babies are born at the same time the thistle seeds are there, it connects you to something bigger than yourself. And for me, having that realization, not even from a book, but from observing it over a couple of years, you know, it it starts to make you feel connected to something, uh, a source that seems bigger than the God they tell you about in church only because you're having this direct interaction with it. And all the time I'm doing that, I am not being fed the paternalistic mantras about who I'm supposed to be. And before I can find myself, I have to unravel all those lies, secrets, deceptions, and assumptions about who I am. And nature allows me to do that. And um in my uh first book, Every Natural Fact, it's uh walks in nature with my son as I'm approaching middle age and he's leaving childhood and approaching adolescence, and we explore all the questions every generation has to ask anew. And nature just gave us the opportunity to explore those. I didn't like, oh, this time we're gonna talk about this or that, but we saw a dead fox lying in the in a path, and it's full of maggots and bugs, and the flesh is almost undulating. And I kind of go, ooh, and back up. And my son leans in, and he's like, Wow, you know, cool, you know, like and then I leaned in and looked at it, and we saw, boy, it was it was busy. That box fur was alive. So we're walking a ways, and you're in nature, so you have time, he has time to think, I have time to think. And he he says to me, Well, why were you so grossed out, mom? And I was like, Well, you know, maybe it's because you know, we all want to preserve our lives, and when you see death, you find that repelling. And he says to me, I don't think it was the death you were repulsed by. He said, I think that it was the life there that made you grossed out. I'm like, wow, I I think you're right. That's deep. It it is. And uh he he was about 10, 11 at the time. So we're having this conversation about that is so much better than me saying, well, you know, it's a circle of life and we're all connected, and you know, life is connected, you know, blah, blah, blah. But you see it, you have an experience and you have an original relationship with the universe. And that's what Emerson was talking about when he said we should be individuals. It wasn't, you know, well, do your own thing as long as you don't hurt anybody. No, it was find your original relationship to the universe. And he thought the best way to do it was through nature. You know, he was the first nature walk guy. And then, of course, uh Thoreau and other and others came. And um, you know, when I read those books, even though he wasn't writing for women too, probably, I decided I was gonna just take all he had to offer it because I was having the same experiences and it was deepening my thoughts, my connections, and my sense of purpose.

Mary 15:21

Well, one of the things that I think also echoes between your experience and mine is that I would go to the woods because I had a brother who was an alcoholic and he was eight years older than me. And I was really the the I bore the brunt of his anger. And my parents, I don't think they knew. I didn't tell them. And it's interesting because you said that too. You didn't even tell your parents, and mine would not have gotten angry, but I think it was more I got the idea of you're not the identified patient, so you stay quiet. But but more what I want to kind of highlight is that I knew that going to nature was a safe place, and so I would do that same thing. I would, I loved the stillness, and really nature is only still sometimes. There's a lot of movement, there's a lot of sound. And I love that you talked about how the the finch babies are born at a time when the thistle seeds are there because that is what they need to feed them. So there is totally a cycle to all of this, and I think unfortunately, a lot of young people now they think nature is something to be afraid of instead of identifying with it. And that that bums me out a lot.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

And um, I'm I'm fortunate because the the son who I walked with um really appreciates um nature quite a bit. Uh, I have a daughter too, and when she sees something in nature interesting, she says, Mom would like that. So I'm gonna take that as a wind because she's still noticing. Um but um my son in nature, um, you know, his experience and my experience are not always the same. And not only do we learn more about nature, we learn more about each other uh when we walk in nature together. So I love to be in nature alone. And if you can be take a walk with another nature appreciator who's noticing along with you, that is a really rich experience to to deepen, you know, the connections between you and between the world. It feels very sacred to have a friend or a buddy that is connected to nature. It's wonderful.

Unlearning Power Structures Through Nature\n

Mary 17:40

Yeah. So how did that really help you start to identify this real, I call it essential nature, like this person that you really are inside, where you we get a lot of messages, like I talked about in my intro, where I think when we're kids, we know what we want. And then as we get older, we're shaped by everything around us. And we either think, well, that's dumb, or that's weird, or that's stupid, or we can't be that way as a female. So, what was it about your trip or even now, your trips into nature that helped you really connect to that person that you are?

Learning To Love A Sassy Voice\n

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Well, I would have to say that I am a slow study because I think, you know, I unravel bits of um the garment I wear that someone put on me that I don't want. And I think I've thrown it off, and then I find there's another one underneath over and over. So initially, when I wrote Every Natural Fact, I'm in nature, I feel connected, I'm learning. Like, how do we distribute resources? And you can see how nature does it, how people do it. Um, you can you can see that most animals in nature don't take a whole lot more than they need, and that there's some system to use everything up so that even in Alaska, when the um bears are so full they only eat the brains, nothing from that salmon is wasted. There's a whole ecosystem that gets fed on it. And, you know, people, you know, we're not so smart. And I start to see how that there are power structures that do not have my best interest. So I wasn't told to be this because it was the best thing for me, or it was the thing I am supposed to be. I was told to do that because there is a power structure in place that wants to keep me the small hardworking support system behind the scenes. And through nature, through Emerson, through other people thinking about a bigger picture than that. I see that I have talent, I have a voice, and maybe I have something to give the world. Other than I'm not saying we shouldn't support each other, we should all support each other, but that's not a uh gendered quality that is specific to me. Like I get to be my best self. And, you know, I didn't realize that until, you know, my husband asked me, what do you want to do? I had never thought, what do I want to do? You know, and and a lot of us are in survival mode, and all you can do is keep your hopes and dreams alive. So, you know, nature helped me with that. But even in my, I'm in my 60s now. And when I wrote my second book, which is The Alchemy of Sass, I was unraveling the lies, secrets, and assumptions in my family history because I didn't know who my father was. My mother hid the secret. We had all these family secrets, all these expectations of who we were supposed to be. And I had had this thing about my mother calling me, I was the sassy daughter, you know, I was the bad daughter, and everything my whole life. And shortly before she died, she, in fact, my last birthday, she the card she gave me, she said to my beautiful, intelligent, sassy daughter, and I looked at her and I said, You like that I'm sassy? And she said, No. But I know it's good. And on some level, even though I always want you to agree with me and you don't, on some level, I know what you think comes from love. And as difficult as a relationship as I had with my mother, who could, you know, because she was a drinker, there were a lot of problems. That doesn't mean she didn't do a lot of good things for me, too, and that she didn't grow as a human being throughout her life. She certainly did. But I that sort of was one of the things that broke something in me. So that eventually what I realized is that even though I had sassy inclinations, I didn't love my sassy voice. So every time I used it, I felt Bad about myself. And I thought it was a failure of mine. And it took me a long time to love my sassy voice. And that unraveling is my is the Alchemy of Sass, my book that's going to come out later this year. In fact, I just want to announce I just signed with a publisher, so I'm very excited about it.

Monoculture Thinking And Social Fear\n

Mary 22:21

Congratulations. That is thank you. That's great. Yeah, that's sort of you have a proven track record when you've published books and now you have a publisher. Yeah. Yes. So one of the things that I'm sort of drawing a parallel in my mind with is you talked about this um socialization that we receive as young women. And I think it's getting a little better. I, you know, I'm never sure. We think, you know, I'm never sure because I don't feel like anything someday days is really getting better. But when you talk about, we all have our unique gifts, which is totally true. And I think about the parallel with how we are now using the earth and plants. So as you've said, systems evolve together. They support each other. But when we want to grow food in a certain way, we will take land and clear it and plant one crop and we spray so many pesticides and herbicides, our food system is very, very unhealthy. And we all don't, we just believe that if it's in the store, it's safe, which that's not true, but we don't want to, that's a whole other episode. So we don't need to talk about that. But I think also when we clear cut woods or forests for supplies, you know, to use the wood, whether it's for paper or furniture, whatever it is, we think that we can just come in and plant one type of tree and it fails. So there's that uniqueness in nature that we want to simplify down and use it just for what we need. And it takes away so much of that unique beauty that just evolved altogether.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Now, when you were talking, my thought was is she talking about how we treat our land and resources, or is she talking about how we treat women? Both it parallel. Yes, right. It's exactly the same, isn't it? That there are these power structures that say, this is how I want to use this resource to my maximum benefit. And when women are objects that are seen only to perform these certain um structures, uh, that's what happens. And so, you know, on one hand, I want to be hopeful, as you said. You know, how are we doing? And we both, I mean, I have the same like wryness. On one hand, I have a uh a daughter-in-law, a dear, dear daughter-in-law. And when she married my son, she thought about it and she said, Well, I don't really want to take his name. And you know, I didn't really love my father's name. So she just changed her name when she got married, and she took the name she wanted. And I thought, well, that was a really bold, awesome move. Uh, you know, really thinking about herself. But yet, on the other hand, um, yesterday I was at a gathering of women, uh, probably, you know, 40, 50, 60s, you know, older middle-aged women. And three of them were talking about that they didn't feel they could, well, I can't say what I really think. I can't do it in my home, I can't do it on social media, I can't do it, it's too dangerous. I won't do it, I won't use my voice. So, you know, for them, the bullies are in charge, and I can't tell them you are responsible to take a risk because it is a risk to take, to use your voice. I'm an advocate of using my voice. I'm not seeding my voice before, you know, you know, maybe I maybe we won't be able to talk, but as long as I can, I will. Uh so, and then the other thing that happened, I was with some younger people, and the guy started saying, they were kidding, they were playing a game or playing volleyball outside. And the one of the guys says to one of the other guys, Oh, you play like a girl. And they're there with their girlfriends and stuff. And I'm the older person, and I'm thinking, okay, here's these young women. Everybody's telling me they don't take this, they're evolved. Let's see what they're gonna think about using the word play like a girl, which is a woman as a pejorative, which talk is really telling about the culture that these boys grew up in. You know, what they're saying, like, I'm not, I wouldn't take this. So I'm waiting, and they repeated it. So finally I said to the guy who was being called the girl, and I said, Well, it must feel good to be called, to say you play like a girl. And then I named a bunch of famous, you know, athletes, women athletes, and I said, What a compliment. Thank you. You know, this was my sort of backhanded way. And then one of the girlfriends, you know, kind of nudged the other guy and said, Hey, yeah, you probably shouldn't say that. So I don't know how enlightened we are anymore. I still think we have a long way to go. And getting removed from nature and your natural self and being um swirling in this tub of social media and friends' pressure and being afraid to say what you really think. I don't none of that is is really helping. I mean, we have all these pockets that aren't talking to each other. So I'm gonna keep using my voice respectfully, loving other people. I'm not gonna try to, you know, push people to say things they're not ready to say or aren't safe to say. But I would say that using your voice and being your authentic self is activism, it's hope for the future, it's you being your best self for the world. And I'm gonna ask us all to be a little braver because the world really needs us.

Mary 28:08

Yeah, and I think we are marinating in social messages. And I'm not sure as much as I like to think, like I have a young niece in her 20s, as much as I like to think young people, like the ones I worked with when I worked at caught college students, they are a little more um enlightened than we or aware than we were. They're still marinating in it. Yes. When those voices get stronger, the volume is turned up. And all of the things that we've worked toward, because you know, whether it's fear or threat or whatever it is, the system tries to re-establish what it thinks is homeostasis. It's not homeostasis. But the other thing that I would say to put another frame around around what you're saying, we started talking about the um diversity in nature. And literally, we will die without diversity if we don't have all of the parts of nature and how it works together. And people think, oh, it's nature, it's trees, it's whatever it is. It's we are nature. And if we don't have that diversity of opinion, of insight, of the ability to speak, then we are becoming the same monoculture as that wheat and corn growing in that poison soil.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Right. And what does a monoculture do? It attracts disease, right? And um, it doesn't support the ecosystem, and it is um a harbinger of decay and death. It's not a glut of food, it's a glut of banality that leads to destruction. So those monocultures in people or culture, which is an interesting word, isn't it? Monoculture. Um we need to do better than that. And so let's not be clones of each other. Um, but I think if we could agree on some just simple, how about if we respect the earth, respect each other, acknowledge life is difficult, and while we're solving the next problem, the next problem, the next problem, be as kind as we can to each other and ourselves. You know, that doesn't sound like it should be so hard, but that really is our challenge, right? To be ourselves, to be kind and to care about the people and the biosystems we live in.

Mary 30:47

Yeah, and I think you nailed part of it. It's that it's fear that keeps us in our place. So I want to talk a little about the idea of feminism, because you you, I think you've written about this, you talk about it. So I don't pay a whole lot of attention, I'm gonna be totally honest, to how we are changing the meaning of words. Because to me, it's like really like let's talk about ideas instead of saying a word is now something that has become bad or good. But I remember when I was younger, Gloria Steinem was all about feminism. And uh to me, it was like, wow, that's bold, that's stepping out, that's having an opinion. And I knew it wasn't always popular, but I think the word feminism has taken on a different hue now. So why do you think people now sort of react negatively to that word? And do you think there's a way to sort of bring back that that sort of, I don't know what's the word I want, like that uh flavor of what that meant?

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Well, right, I call it the F word because really there's a lot of hate attached to to feminism. And underneath, uh not liking the word feminine and attaching hate to it is hating women. Because all feminism is is saying, I think I want equal rights for women. That's all. That's it. So the fact that it got so complicated, one, I think it's homophobic because they equate uh, oh, those feminists, they have short hair and they wear those clunky sandals, and we know what kind of women they are. And of course, that's scary. I mean, women having power and then lesbian women having power. I mean, that that I don't know who's more afraid, the suppressed or the suppressor. You know, they are afraid of our power. So if somebody doesn't want to use the feminism word feminism, I'm okay with that. Um you said you're about ideas. I would guess that you believe in equality of the sexes, racist, and all of those things. Yes, yeah, I can write. I see your head shaking. We assume that about each other. So that word doesn't scare me, and I'm not afraid to use it. Um what I hope is that I don't have to be wearing a banner and shouting about it every day. Here's what I hope happens when people meet me in social settings: that they figure out I'm not a monster, that I'm nice. I hope I've said something kind to them, um, that I'm not a doormat, that I have a voice. And then as they learn my opinions, even if they don't agree with them, I hope it started from a place where, well, she seems like a nice lady, you know. So if I, you know, just try to be kind and good, and I'm not, you know, shouting my opinions constantly, like, you know, you have this picture of the ugly American. You know, I don't want to be that person, I want to be somebody who can listen, somebody who can change their mind. And I would hope people would get to know me on that level, and then my ideas about feminism, equality, protecting the earth would all come from the mouth of somebody who they think is not a bad person. So on an individual level, that's one of the ways I think I can uh uh forward the cause of feminism. When I write about feminism, I'm often, you know, preaching to the choir. Uh people who pick up my books would probably know that uh I think that half the population of the world should be in charge with the other, with the other other people in the world. So uh, you know, that we should, you know, share in and we have so much awesome gifts to bring to the world. So I don't have to champion, you know. I I thought about, you know, do I put my pronoun nouns up? You know, like it's like the politically correct thing to do. And I thought, you know, there is no really right answer. I'm not gonna judge somebody for doing it or for not doing it. I thought, well, if I had a child who was trans, I bet I would. So like, should I put it up in support of those trans people, even though I I and so far, like I haven't, because if somebody thought I was a man, I would just say I was a girl. And maybe that makes me not as evolved in that area, but um, I don't know. I'm not gonna judge you if you do or you don't. So I don't think we all have to do the same thing and have the same, most of us have our most important causes. That doesn't mean the other causes aren't good too, but gee, I it's really hard to carry all of them. And um, I do care about uh about women, about voices, about authenticity, about nature, about equality, about justice. You know, I I can't carry everything.

Mary 35:58

Well, and I think it starts with challenging assumptions. And yes, when when someone has a different experience than you, right, it's being curious, but we tend to go toward fear first or negate their experience. But you know, I think often too, history can inform us. So when we think about the history of women, women worked together, women were healers. What we have a lot of power in the essence of being female, and I I really truly believe that that in a lot of Native American cultures, it was a matriarchy, it wasn't a patriarchy. And so there's a lot that happened in history that sort of tipped the scales, and then there was something called coverture, right? I want to talk about this word because I'm gonna say that most people don't know what it is, have never heard of it. So it's C-O-V-E-R-T-U-R-E coverture.

Coverture And The Hidden History Of Ownership\n

SPEAKER_01 36:56

I I got it. Yeah, I know that word.

Mary 36:58

I want no, I want the listeners to know. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Oh, good. Yeah.

Mary 37:02

I think it's a new term because I think many of us just believe this is how it's always been, this is how it's always going to be. But I think there's a history that we need to understand when we think about why is there a narrative? Why is there a certain limiting narrative often for women? Why are there socialized roles that we tend to fall into? So can you talk a little about coverture and what it is?

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Well, um, it started a long time ago, but really it's English law that came over at the beginning of the country that said, as a woman, your life disappears under the life of your first your father and then your husband. So we're basically property. And the remnants of coverture um are with us in many ways. In fact, I'll just tell you, uh I moved into a new neighborhood. I understand you're leaving, it's always interesting. I moved into a new neighborhood and they had a newsletter and it said, uh, okay, these these are the people who are moving in, and it gave three new people. It gave all the husbands employment, and then just the wife. You know, you could see, okay, the wife, the husband, he's the head. Um most of us um in my in my age group, I remember the first time I applied for a credit card, um, I wasn't married, and that was a big issue. You your husband has to sign, oh, I'm not married, and I was a nurse, and I, you know, I and I had to write uh several letters to get the credit card, and then I never used it because I was so mad at those people, but I just wanted to get the card. So coverture is really that you are not a full person. And that was the law in the United States. You have um uh, you know, the presidents, uh well, Abigail Adam saying to her husband as they're working on the Constitution, give a thought to the women, because we can't own property. She she was back home running the farm. He's in Washington, and she's got to get her permit. She's running everything. Uh, you know, dear husband, you know, I need something in writing that I can sell this cow, that I can do this, because we're not real people. You know, a lot of women don't even know that um black slaves had the right to vote before women. You know, of course, black women, you know, they were with us. And uh I should probably say we didn't always do a great job in white women didn't always do a good job in in bringing them along in the way we should. But this coverture is really ownership. And it's embedded in the culture and is alive today, and it is a place that a lot of men want to go back to, um, where they they really they want a woman to take care of them, support them, um, just very similar to how you would want a slave. And maybe they think I would be a good master and that makes them a good peop person, but I don't want to be a slave, I don't want anybody to be a slave. And and why would you want me to be a slave? I have good ideas. Why don't we be partners? We we could be awesome together. So that's what we're looking for is to erase ownership.

Mary 40:32

Yeah, and I think again, there's so much about it that we don't even see because it's so embedded. And I know there are a lot of pretty enlightened men that also don't see the full picture. The one thing that I've I growls to my current husband about is we live in an HOA right now, and we have to vote on certain things. Well, there's one ballot that comes to the couple with the man's name on it, and the assumption is you get one vote. And I said to him, What if we don't agree? Or like, what if I want my own ballot? There's no space in any of the software or anything they have for there to be two names. And well, that's culture, isn't it? Yes, it is. And and typically, anytime there's a married couple, the male's name is first. We just signed papers to buy another house. His name was first. It just is so ingrained that we don't even see it. And I will say then the one more thing that I that I always complain to him about. When we got married, I took his name because the name I had was my ex-husband's name. So I really didn't want to keep that, didn't want to go back to my maiden name. And I said, if men change their names, it would not be this hard. The hoops that you have to jump through to change your name everywhere is just asinine. So everything is predicated on making it difficult, or you know, there's so many things. And I know right now there are people listening that are rolling their eyes, like, why do you have to make everything into a big deal? And I think it's really going back to what we were saying. Be curious that there's truth in a lot of this. And I think if you can start to look at inside, like there have to be times when women feel like, wait a minute, I don't want to go along with this, but a lot of them do.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Yes. Well, I think what you're saying about this coverture showing up in the paperwork, you know, we just were going through in Congress the SAVE Act, which was, you know, about voting and women and that trail of paperwork that they want to, you know, it would make it very hard and strip away more and more rights. So I don't think it's um the the power structures that this is just like innocent. I I think it's uh it's a power grab to diminish women. So I mean, as you say, um some people might not see that. And one of the reasons it's hard to see is when you are part of a subculture, when you are the person being owned or under the dominion of someone else, your power comes from that other person. So you are ingrained in supporting that. My, oh, look, I have this powerful man who maybe he brings home a salary and he doesn't beat me too often, or maybe he never beats me, just demeans me a little now and then. You know, but it but that's my power. That's all the power I have. So I am not in a place to say anything negative about that power because that power is all the power I have. He is my only source of power. So it's very hard to recognize your inner power uh in those situations.

Mary 43:59

Yeah. Brings us back to the fear. And so I want to sort of put a word in for women to support each other. And when we see a situation where it might be a woman who, and I won't put any labels on it, but who tends to seem to want a more traditional role. What we have told is the role a wife should take. Again, be curious about that. And there may be a lot of parts of that that we don't quite understand. And sometimes, you know, keeping, as you're saying, like sort of keeping that identity when they feel like there's no other power is a survival thing. And a lot of times trauma is wrapped into this. And so I think trying to have that compassion and understanding while still being able to say, you know, this is what I believe, and this is how I feel I need to, you know, share an opinion or, you know, put my real self into the world, having the compassion for someone who hasn't quite gotten there yet, I think can lift us all up if we can find that compassion. It's really knowing when do you confront something and when do you offer, you know, that compassion from the background, like an ally. I think sometimes that's a that can be a hard road to figure out.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

Well, I think, you know, listening and being curious and having an intention of being loving, you know, uh whatever you say, things could go wrong. But you know, if you're coming from that place, um it's you know likely to be positive. And the other thing is I I just do want to mention about roles that like two people who are equal partners could come together and figure out the roles for the family, where on the surface, oh, it looks like a traditional family. You know, maybe the woman decided she's gonna work part-time during all this. So if the two people together decide on their roles, I mean, that's an equal partnership. And that's awesome. But if you cannot be yourself in that relationship and you diminish yourself for someone else, that's where we might want to be an example or a nudge or invite them to book club or what what whatever it is, and be curious about what ways we might uh support them and what enlightenment they might have for us and we might have for them.

unknown 46:21

Yeah.

Free Book Offer And Springtime Coaching

Mary 46:22

Yeah, that the world is not black and white, it's so much the whole continuum, and it's gray, gray, gray. Everything's gray, really. So yeah, I think when you find yourself wanting to be at one end of a continuum or a spectrum, be aware that you're standing on an edge and there's a lot that are between you and that other edge that maybe start to explore. But man, I could talk to you another for another hour, Amy. Great. This has been wonderful. So tell us a little bit about your latest book and where people can find you. And I think you have an offer for them. Am I right?

SPEAKER_01 47:00

I I actually, yes, I have something free for them. So I'm I'm excited. I uh I'm at amiloujenkins.com and there I you can learn about my books. I have a couple of blogs that you can access there. And I run a writer's uh writer clubhouse where if you want to just write personal essay or memoir, I have lots of ways to support and help you be a writer, and uh whether for publication or journaling. And and right now my publisher from my uh first book, Every Natural Fact, is allowing me to give a free download. So if you go to AmyLu Jenkins.com, it's A M Y L O U J E N K I N S dot com. Uh just scroll down a little ways, you'll see the free offer. You can download the book, and you will then be on my lit friends newsletter, and you'll hear about all the ways I can support you, your voice, your authenticity, and you'll hear about my new book, The Alchemy of Sass, a revolution of becoming and belonging. And it's about me unraveling all these uh cultural, family secrets, lies, and assumptions that underpinned my identity and kept me from loving my authentic voice. And it's a path forward. There's a little bit of nature in there, a little culture, a little mystery. And I I hope you'll love it.

Mary 48:26

Oh, I do. I love all of that. And I'm gonna link your website in the show notes so people can access it. And thank you, thank you really so much for having this conversation today. Thank you. It was such a pleasure. And I want to thank everyone for listening. This week is the beginning of spring in the United States, my very favorite time of the year. It's literally the time of new beginnings. If the themes of no shrinking violets resonate with you, my burn and build coaching package might be the new beginning you're seeking, built on the idea that controlled burning of prairies and small patches of woodland clears out old and sometimes diseased growth and allows space for long-dormant seeds and new growth to find the sun and flourish. Three months of coaching with me could help you clear what no longer serves you to allow your life to grow in the ways that reflect your true nature. Check out the burn and build link in the show notes for more information. And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.