Midlife Desire: How Honest Conversations Revive Intimacy And Rewrite Sexual Scripts

Sex shouldn’t feel like a performance review you’re destined to fail. We pull back the curtain on the quiet pressures that keep women from asking for what they want, then rebuild intimacy on a foundation of comfort, consent, and curiosity. With licensed marriage and family therapist and certified sex therapist Keri Green, we explore how midlife bodies and busy lives change desire—and why that doesn’t have to mean the end of a satisfying sex life.

We start by dismantling the narrow scripts many of us inherited: that intimacy equals penetration, that arousal is instant, and that a kiss must escalate. Keri offers simple, direct language to set boundaries without killing the mood and shows how “comfort first, pleasure second” can transform encounters. We get practical about menopause, lubrication, erection variability, and anxiety loops that shut down arousal. You’ll hear real-world strategies like keeping lube on the nightstand, slowing down foreplay, and agreeing on Plan B options when things shift mid‑moment so connection doesn’t collapse into silence.

Beyond techniques, we redefine intimacy as a spectrum—cooking together, lingering conversations, shared laughter—that restores safety and play. Keri explains why confidence often beats chemistry at 50, how mindful showers and body awareness rekindle self-trust, and how to give kind feedback using everyday analogies. We also make a case for novelty: music, lighting, textures, and yes, sex toys as any element that adds pleasure and ease. If you’ve ever worried that wanting closeness will be mistaken for obligation, this conversation hands you the scripts and skills to change that pattern.

Ready to replace pressure with play and performance with presence? Listen now, then share this episode with a friend who needs a kinder map for midlife intimacy. If the show resonates, follow, rate, and leave a review—your support helps more listeners find honest, hopeful conversations about sex and relationships.

Book mentioned: Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski

You can find Keri here: https://kerigreenlmft.com/

Transcript

Opening: Why Sex Feels Confusing

SPEAKER_02 0:00

The biggest question is, when did it change? And is it really that you do not want to be sexual? Which again is fine if that is the case, or I just haven't been able to prioritize myself in my body for 20 years. I've been busy raising kids and working full time and driving carpool. So being in my body and being sexual has been 17 on the list. And I don't get past 10 if I'm lucky.

College Pressures And Sexual Scripts

Midlife Shift: Desire And Hormones

Guest Intro: Sex Therapist Credentials

Flashbulb Moments And Career Path

Mary 0:29

For centuries, the phrase shrinking violet was used to diminish women, to suggest we were meant to be small and meek. But in nature, violets are anything but weak. They're resilient, beautiful, and essential to the ecosystem. Hi, I'm Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist, and each week I sit down with women who remind us that being compared to a violet isn't an insult. It's a testament to strength, endurance, and the power of taking up space and living by your true nature. If you're ready to stop shrinking and start thriving, you're in the right place. Hey Violets, welcome to the show. One of the reasons I started this podcast was because of my work with young women in college. So often they would tell me that they went along with physical intimacy because it was just easier than expressing their preferences. They shrank from advocating for their own needs. I suspect that often they either weren't sure what they wanted or they did know, but felt like they were being a tease or a prude if they said they wanted to stop. Although I'm not sure any of my young women ever used the word prude, that's more a word from my generation. They were and are so inundated with messages about what they should do or should want, how they should be sexy, that attention from men is the goal. Although, to be honest, my lesbian clients were often confused about sex too. I would venture to say that young women today might be more discerning about the pressures of sex. But the clothing that many of them wear and the studied poses on social media probably indicate a sophistication about sex that is overestimated. Because the limitations around accessing sexual images is largely gone today. When I was a teen and a young adult, the messages about sex and sexuality were found in print ads or movies. Now they are a click away and misinformation abounds. Anyway, sex, especially in the United States, is fraught. And what I found after I transitioned to working with women in midlife is that the confusion largely still exists. It's just shifted because now we've had a lifetime of acquiescing or tolerating situations that weren't truly what we wanted. Perhaps we even experienced traumas that we buried for all the reasons I just talked about. And our hormones change, which means our bodies probably change. And countless women have told me that they couldn't care less about sex anymore. Yet the pressure to quote fix that still abounds. My guest today works in the world of sex. Well, not like that. She helps clients with their sexuality. And so I asked her if we could talk about sex in women in midlife. She said yes, and I'm really looking forward to hearing her insights from her professional experience. Carrie Green is a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified sex therapist. She brings over 20 years of experience working with adults and couples in a variety of ways, most currently through sex therapy, which offers a safe space to be open and vulnerable to explore desire, sexuality, gender, communication, trauma, dysfunction, and more. We all deserve to experience safety and pleasure in our bodies, both in the intimate relationships we have with others and within ourselves. Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, Carrie. Thank you. Very happy to be here. Okay, so I always have my guests start with flashbulb moments. So these are times in life that when we sort of look back, and it could be very recent, it could be childhood, they're those times that stand out as pivotal moments. So things that sort of informed our journey. So what do you think those might be for you that informed the work that you do today?

SPEAKER_02 4:14

So I have two. It's a great question. Um I knew from a young age that I wanted to be a therapist. I didn't know what a therapist was or what the, you know, what it meant, but I knew I wanted to be someone who helped others feel better about themselves and feel that they had a trusted person that they could go to. And this started honestly back in elementary school on the playground. I was the one in the friend group. I still am the one in the friend group 35 plus years later, that friends would come to me and ask questions, ask for advice, share secrets. And it really made me feel good that I could be someone that they trusted and would give good advice, good support. And here I am, you know, doing that in my career. So, not so much a pivotal moment per se, but just recognizing even at a young age, I knew what I wanted to do and went to college, got the degree, went on for my master's and licensing. The switch to going from a general licensed marriage and family therapist to a sex therapist is a little bit different of a journey. Of course, I did not want to be, nor would I know what a sex therapist was back, you know, back on the playground in elementary school. Um, my journey has been interesting. I am divorced. I have been divorced for, you know, close to nine years. And my sexual journey, I think, was maybe different than a lot of people's. I was maybe a late bloomer, as they say. I had a serious boyfriend in college and had my first experiences with him. And then the next partner I had was my eventual husband, now ex-husband. So when I chose to end my marriage at 38 years old with two young children, I had two partners and not a lot of dating experience. I had been in two very long-term relationships. So it made me think: what do I want moving forward in my life, both sexually, intimately, romantically, as well as the relationship with myself? And so that was a pivotal moment to kind of figure out 38 years old, what do I want my journey to look like now? And I've I've been on it for the last nine years and I've, you know, enjoyed every step of the way.

What Sex Therapy Really Is

Mary 6:26

So really cool what you just said because so often the women I talk to, they experience something themselves and then they leverage that to help other women. So I love that. Um, and there's so many things in there that I I want to try to explore. But the first thing that I want is to have you tell us a little bit about what sex therapy is, because I think that's an that's something where maybe in the movies it was kind of made into something that it's not. So we may all have an idea. Like, what does that mean? So tell us a little bit about what is sex therapy? How do you help people?

Communication As The Core Skill

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Yeah. So I'll answer that question in just a minute. And I giggled a little when you did your introduction because I do call myself a sex worker. I just say I'm a sex worker that keeps her clothes on. So I get paid to talk about sex all day. Um, sex therapy is really no different than any other form of therapy. It is a person, a couple coming to see a licensed therapist with a background in clinical education and experience around the specific topic of sex. And what that means is so many things fall under the umbrella of sex therapy. It is everything from um mismatched desire between two people in a relationship. It includes sexual dysfunction, sexual trauma, kinks and BDSM, wanting to possibly open a relationship. Everything comes down to communication. So so much of communication around sex. Do I ask for what I want? Do I even know what I want? Um, how have my desires, likes and dislikes and comfortability changed over the years with my partner I've been with for five, 10 plus years? Um, and that's all under the sex, you know, part. There's also gender. So there's the gender identity, and do I feel like I am the gender that I was, you know, born with at birth? And so the majority of the clients and couples that come to me are about desire, usually mismatched desire, and questioning their sexuality, questioning their sexuality in a sense of I used to be sexual, I used to want these things and now I don't. What's wrong with me? And it's not that something's wrong with you per se, but let's unpack what the journey has looked like and how you've gotten to where you are. And I'm all about if a person or a couple is happy with where their sex life is, I'm not here to tell them you're doing it too much, you're not doing it enough. The issue lies when one person wants one thing and the other one wants something else. And that's a lot of the conversations that take place in sex therapy.

Mary 9:10

Okay. Well, and one of the things that you brought up and was part of sort of your intro bio, is having kind of a relationship with ourselves in the sense that we understand and know what we want. And I think, again, to go back to my generation, that was a very foreign idea. We were taught to want whatever the partner tells us we want. Yeah.

Three Relationships In Every Couple

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Yeah. I think that still holds true in a lot of ways. I think we've definitely come very far, but we still have a very far way to go. Um, I always say most of my clients, most of my couples are in monogamous two-person relationships. So I'm just going to use that as an example. I always say that even in a two-person relationship, there's actually three relationships because there's the relationship person A has with themselves, there's the relationship person B has with themselves, and then there's the relationship they have together. And I am not saying that both people have to be sexual with themselves in order to have a good, fun, healthy, passionate sex life together. But I definitely think there is something to be said about how we do have a relationship with ourselves, sexual or otherwise, absolutely makes a difference in how we are not just going to show up every day in that relationship, but certainly how we're going to show up in a sexual way. And again, like you said, a lot of people, especially women, are taught to be a certain way, please their partner, let their own needs go back on the back burner. We do it every day. Kids come first, dog comes second, job comes third. Oh, maybe my husband will be on there, you know, somewhere if I can get around to it. So I want to encourage clients, men and women, to own their sexuality and their pleasure and find ways that they can understand that language. So then they can communicate that language to whomever they're sharing their sexual journey with. And it's not easy by any means.

Mary 11:09

It's not easy because it's the most intimate thing we do. And I think it's probably the thing we're the most skeeved about communicating, like really talking honestly about it.

Why We Avoid Talking About Sex

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Absolutely. I mean, sex and money are the two things that people have the hardest time talking about. And I always say, I understand sex is different than most topics. We're not going to be out and about, you know, at the grocery store on our phone talking loudly about the great sex we had last night. Maybe someone does that, but most people don't. But someone might be talking loudly about, you know, their frustration of whatever's going on in their life. But sex is not talked about as openly as I would like it to be. Again, understanding we have to look around and see, you know, who's around us. But a lot of my conversations with clients is using other examples in their lives about how maybe they talk to their partner about other things and using those strengths to then be able to talk about the intimate part of their relationship. Because most people either are not talking about sex, or if they are, they're not talking about it with the person or people that they are engaging in sexual experiences with. They're telling their friends, they're telling their hairdresser, they're telling their therapist, which is great that we're talking about it, but probably not to the person who deserves to hear what those vulnerable thoughts and feelings are.

Mary 12:35

Yeah. And I think I talk about social scripts a lot. And I think they're we're we're really functioning on what we've been taught that, you know, we see these scenes in movies where people meet and 30 minutes later they're like banging against the wall, literally against the walls of like a hotel room. And it's like women aren't made that way. Not saying that that never happens, but I think we're sort of fed this idea that if you are truly a woman, you're turned on immediately. You can orgasm like a man can. And so we're functioning from a lot of scripts that are wrong. Yes. And so when I one of the things that I mentioned, and we talked about before I hit record, is I think that women accumulate this over the years. So they'll get to the age that I am. I'll speak for myself. I'm not, you're younger than me, but I think we get to an age where we've sort of not acknowledged this or we've worried so much that we're weird or wrong or not feminine enough that if we're in, let's say, a long relationship, we'll use that as an example to start. Let's say you've been, someone's been married for 20 years and things have gone stale. Maybe they've raised the kids. The kids are maybe in college now. So now they're back to empty nest and looking at each other over the dinner table or beside each other watching Netflix with dinner. And they realize we're not really physically intimate anymore. So where would you maybe start with that kind of issue?

Movie Myths Versus Real Arousal

Rewriting Scripts And Grief Work

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Yeah. So I just had a new couple yesterday and I only do telehealth. So I'm not seeing them physically in front of me and seeing their full body, but I can at least see their facial expression. I can see part of their body. This couple was sitting next to each other, but they were about an inch apart and not touching. And it literally would have taken one of them moving an inch to just have their shoulders touch. And so I called them out on that and not in a bad way, not in a shaming way, but just because they hadn't touched each other in a long time, um, sexually or otherwise. So a lot of the work I do is psychoeducation. And it's never about you're not an educated person. You could have all these accolades and master's degrees. So many people are not educated on sex and what they see in the movies, what they see in porn, what they're told that is their education, and it's not realistic. The other thing is, I talk so much in sex therapy about grief and loss. Grief and loss is not just when I was younger, my grandfather died, and I'm really sad about it. I get that. It's also I didn't perform the way I wanted to in this sexual experience. I thought I could trust someone and they betrayed me sexually. There's so much grief and loss and disappointment that comes up in sex therapy as well. But to specifically answer your question, again, it has to start with what is your understanding of sex, orgasm, pleasure, expectations of a woman, expectations of a man. And then we can maybe debunk some of those things and rewrite the script, rewrite the narrative. Maybe you grew up thinking your body wasn't just yours when you shared it with another person. Let's work through that trauma, grief, and loss. And now let's reclaim our bodies. And if we want to share it with another person, let's do that in a way where we still hold the control and the power. It's consensual and it can also be enjoyable and pleasurable if we want it to be.

Mary 16:15

Yeah, there's a lot of layers to uncover because I think women don't often, and men too, but we're really talking mostly to women on this podcast. But I think women don't, they don't always know why they are sitting an inch away and not touching. Why do they find themselves um acting in a way that would discourage intimacy? And they know they do it, but they're not sure why. And I think then there's another layer of guilt over that.

The Inch Apart: Rebuilding Touch

SPEAKER_02 16:42

There is, and I would say, at least from my experience with both friends, the clients, I have a pretty good sample size to work with. So I think most people would agree to this. A lot of women don't even allow themselves to sit that inch closer to give their partner a kiss on their way out the door because they are worried if I make one move, it's gonna turn into sex. They're gonna expect, oh, if I give them a kiss on the cheek, they're going to expect that now that kiss on the cheek is going to turn into more kissing. And kissing is going to turn into touching, and touching is going to turn into undressing. So I cannot tell you how many times I've heard, yes, I would like to cuddle with my partner. Yes, I would like to engage in some things sexually with my partner. I just don't want it to be expected or assumed it's gonna go right to penetrative sex, and now I have to perform in this way that I don't want to. And so my response to that is it doesn't have to, nor should it ever be expected that it's going to. It has to start with a conversation. And that's again what couples aren't having. Yes, honey, I would like you to give me a massage. That is so kind of you. I had a stressful day, and I just want to keep it at a massage. I hope that doesn't hurt your feelings. Maybe you're disappointed. Tonight is a night where a massage would be lovely, nothing more. Now, does that partner maybe choose to then not give their wife, girlfriend a massage because they only wanted to give a massage if they knew it was going to lead to more? Maybe. And then now they have that to discuss, you know, but again, it comes down to needing to be vulnerable, needing to be honest, and then seeing how that plays out.

Mary 18:31

Because two things occur to me. One, I think we we as women do that because we've had the experience of we, you know, we open the door a little bit and all of a sudden it's like, oh, I see. Here's the invitation. But I think also men, there are some men that aren't like that. And so they may, they may want to have just that affection also and not, especially I'll say older men, because it's not as easy for them to maintain an erection. But I think we're still functioning as women from this idea of if I do one little thing, they're then going to want to take it to the next level. But because we haven't communicated in these long-term relationships, we don't recognize that the man is kind of maybe feeling the same way. Like, oh, I don't want pressure of performing because I'm not sure I can.

Fear Of Escalation And Boundaries

SPEAKER_02 19:24

And I talk about missed opportunities all the time. I always say if somebody is putting themselves out there in a sexual way, they deserve a thank you and a recognition of at least putting themselves out there, whether it's going to turn into anything or not. So I always say if your partner offers something, tries to make the moves on something, at least say thank you first and then give your reason you may not be in the mood for it. And now when I say makes a move, I'm not saying that they grab you and do something that's, you know, obviously not okay and not safe. I mean if you're on the couch cuddling and they start to kiss your neck, you know, maybe say, hold on a second, you know, thank you for wanting to do more. This is where, you know, this is where I'm at. I also speak to a lot of women about you may not want to have sex with your husband tonight. And you don't have to have sex with your husband tonight. Yet if he is giving you a massage, you are enjoying it, you are relaxed, it is turning you on and you want to do more. Please don't close yourself off from that opportunity because you told yourself earlier we're only having a massage. Maybe you change your mind and actually want more. My guess is he's going to be very happy to hear that. We're always allowed to change our mind. We just have to be honest and vocal about it.

Mary 20:48

Yeah. And it goes back to the communication, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:51

That is that always comes back to the communication. Yeah. Yeah. Always.

Mary 20:55

So going into it with the understanding of I sometimes hold back because I'm worried that, you know, and that will open a conversation, I think.

Comfort First, Pleasure Second

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Absolutely. And again, I know we're here more to speak about women, but men hold back a lot because they are concerned they're not going to be able to perform. I am meeting with so many men in their 20s and 30s, let alone their 40s and 50s, with sexual dysfunction, with erectile dysfunction. Um, and maybe this is where we go in this conversation. Maybe this is a conversation for another time. Both men and women, so much of sex is mental. I always say comfort first, pleasure second. Comfort needs to be, yes, the physical comfort in our own bodies, but it also needs to be our emotional comfortability, our mental comfortability. If we are not going into a sexual experience comfortable, and I don't mean you need to be a 10 out of 10, but it's not gonna work if you're a three out of 10. So for First, what do I need to feel comfortable in this moment? I want to have sex with my partner tonight. What do I need to build up to that? Because, like you mentioned in the movies, it's not just we're gonna walk in the door from a nice dinner and clothes are gonna be off, makeup's not gonna be smeared, and we're gonna both within five minutes have an orgasm at the same time, and then we're gonna fall asleep lovingly in each other's arms. No woman in a movie have I ever seen get up after sex to go pee and avoid a UTI. I've never seen it. Not sure if you have. And now that I'm a sex therapist, I'm almost critiquing those scenes. You know, wait a second, this didn't happen, that didn't happen. He didn't say this, she didn't do that. So when I do see some real sex, meaning like what we all experience, I applaud the director, writer of that movie, of that show. And I think again, we're getting better at it. We're seeing more normal sex happening. But yes, if that's the roadmap we're we're shown at a younger age, that's what we expect when it's our turn. That's what we're thinking is going to take place. And we almost feel like we have to perform in that way or it's wrong. So I really, really, really back to psychoeducation, like to normalize what sex is and what is okay. It's okay to stop in the middle. It's okay to make noises, it's okay to make a mess. It's okay to need to ask a question, need to check in to see if the person's enjoying what is going on. There's a lot of communication, verbal and nonverbal, that needs to take place during sex. And a lot of people, even in the 20 plus year marriages, aren't having those conversations.

Normalizing Real Sex And Check‑Ins

Mary 23:49

They're absolutely not. And it's so funny you bring that up about getting up to pee because when it doesn't happen, I'm so uncomfortable. I realize I'm sitting there uncomfortable, like, honey, you got to get up and go pee. So yeah. And then that can lead to, well, it's weird if I say I need to do this. You know, it really is. We're so kind of um shackled by these things. Yeah, but but then my question is, why is that weird? Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:12

Agree. Again, if if a and maybe a man knows, maybe a man doesn't. I don't know. If a man knew that the option, well, it's of course always an option of the woman to get up and go pee after sex because there's a possibility of a UTI happening, wouldn't he rather have her take the 30 seconds minute to go pee, wash her hands, and then come back and cuddle and do the aftercare than know she's laying in this and she's going to get a UTI possibly. And then we're not gonna be able to even have sex for a week or two. I mean, it shouldn't come down to that. But at the same time, why should we not need to stop and get a drink of water? Why should we not need to say, okay, this has been a fun position. Now let's do another. We're so worried in the moment of what the other person's gonna think, and we want to please them and not show up as a version that they may not like. And a lot of it starts even from the beginning stages of dating, and we keep that mask, so to speak, throughout that relationship.

Mary 25:17

Yeah, I often say if you pretend you're the person that your new dating partner wants, then they'll never love you because they're they don't know. Yeah.

Feedback Without Shame: The Chicken Test

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yeah, I see that a lot in sex therapy. I'm working with a new couple where she has been faking her orgasms for the past two years. Oh, wow. And he had no idea. And so they're in sex therapy because she wants to be with him, she loves him. The sex is great. She's just not having an orgasm by him, with him. And those are conversations that we can work through in therapy. He's, of course, embarrassed, upset, feeling betrayed because she wasn't being truthful. And again, that's a whole other conversation about women who fake orgasms than most do a lot have. Um, but it is feeling comfortable enough to show our true selves at the beginning of a relationship. So it's not a shock five, 10, 15 years later, that we are not that same version. Now, there's a difference between someone when you are in your 20s, 30s, however old you are when you first meet your partner, and you are more adventurous. You are more sexual. You do want to do those things. And as time goes on, maybe you've changed your mind. That is one possible scenario. What I see more often are the women who, again, put on this front in the beginning of a relationship because they think that's what the man wants, needs, or maybe he'll not want to date her and be with her. And so, yes, even one, two, three years into a relationship, a lot of the couples I work with aren't married. They're they're dating, they're they're seeking sex therapy six months, one year into their relationships. It's not just the married couples that have been together forever that I'm seeing. And the man is confused because it's like, wait a second, when we first met, you liked doing these things. You talked dirty, you were open to this. And then she basically, you know, finally says, actually, no, I wasn't. And he's like, Well, what do you mean you weren't? And then there's that having to unpack. Wait a second. Well, then if that wasn't your true self, what else were you maybe keeping from me? And what does that mean for the future of our relationship? So I am all about, I get it's easier said than done, being honest from the very start. And if the two people or multiple people in the relationship are meant to be together, they will be able to work through those differences. But if we're not honest, then it's gonna be much harder later to recover from that, to repair from that.

Mary 27:56

Yeah, for sure.

unknown 27:57

Yeah.

Defining Intimacy Beyond Penetration

Mary 27:58

So I want to talk about the idea of intimacy itself, because I think when we say that word, a lot of times, especially in the United States, we think that means intercourse, penetration. Right. Right. But there's a huge continuum of physical intimacy, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:13

There's a huge continuum of sexual intimacy. I think everything's a spectrum. So I use the word intimacy all the time. And again, I'm very big on language. I ask the person or couple, if it's a couple, to define what intimacy means to them. And yes, most start with, well, intimacy is sex, and sex is penis and vagina penetration with an orgasm. Well, you know, if we have the word intimacy be this big, the minute you say it's sex, it's now this big. The minute you say it's penetrative sex, it's now this big. Orgasm at the same time, we have like a little bit to work with. Yeah. Versus if we call intimacy larger, and I believe a couple cooking a meal together can be an absolutely more beautiful, intimate experience than his penis happening to go into her vulva two hours later. I agree with that. But we have to redefine what we even call intimacy and experience more of those intimate moments, then put the pressure on sex itself, because those intimate moments throughout the day are going to lead to more comfort and closeness if and when the sexual peace does happen.

Mary 29:30

And communication is really ultimate intimacy, that talking about when you say vulnerable, being vulnerable to say, here's what I really like or here's what I don't like, because it does open up the potential to disappoint someone or for them to be like, ooh, like really, you know, you never know what that response is going to be. But I think when we distance ourselves physically because we're trying to keep that, you know, sex at bay, then we also lose a lot of emotional intimacy.

Body Changes, Menopause, And Lube

Cognition, Anxiety, And ED

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Absolutely. I um I have a couple specifically I'm thinking of where he does most of the cooking. And overall, she loves this cooking. But there was a time where he made, let's say, a chicken recipe and she didn't like it as much. Let's say it was spicier than it normally is. And I said to her in the couple session, it was maybe a few nights before this had happened and it came up in conversation. I said, Well, how did you share with him how that chicken meal wasn't as good as you're used to? And she's like, Oh, well, it was easy. I said this, I said that. I started by saying, honey, I appreciate how much you cooked dinner and I love that you tried this new recipe. I don't know about you, but I just found it to be a little bit too spicy. Maybe next time, if you don't mind, you know, put the spice on half of it or whatever the case is. And I said, now tell me how it would be different with sex. And she's like, Well, what do you mean? And I said, How is the conversation any different? You let the person know what you like, you gently tell them what you didn't like, and together you come up with a new plan, a new recipe, so to speak, of how it's gonna look different next time. Most people want their partner to feel good. Most people want their partner to be enjoying the experience, maybe as much as they are, whether that's realistic or not, but at least enjoying the experience. And we're not gonna know if they're enjoying the experience if they don't tell us. We may think they are because they're making the noises, they're doing the moves, but again, that's now an act. It's not real. So I try and normalize sex a lot with bringing in other conversations. I bring in food a lot because it's something most people could relate to. And I get it. Sex is a very sensitive topic. The husband may have been less offended by hearing his chicken recipe wasn't as good as his wife had hoped it would be, you know, versus him performing oral sex on her. So I get there's a difference. But really, if we can just trust the process and go slow and be honest, a lot of these things can be talked through.

unknown 32:12

Yeah.

Mary 32:13

Yeah. So to go back to our long-term couple, so how do you work with someone that they're a woman's body does change tremendously after hormone shifts? So maybe there's a lot of weight gain or they're recognizing that sex has changed a lot since they got together 20 years ago. How do you help someone that come that comes to you and says, like, I don't like my body, I don't really like sex anymore. There a lot has changed. How do you start with that?

Plan B Options When Things Shift

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Number one, thanking them for being honest and vulnerable, being willing to even say those words out loud. And then number two, so with that validation, and number two, normalizing it. Yes, your body has changed. You are now 50, you are not 20. So let's name it. My boobs don't look the same, my skin is different, I don't get wet as quickly. Like, let's name the actual things no differently than I need to wear glasses now. I need to turn the volume up on the TV a little bit louder. Whatever it is. Let's name the things that are different, grieve the loss of that. Here we are back to grief work, and decide what we're gonna do with that. You know, I may not be able to self-lubricate as well as I used to be able to. Now I need lube or something else, you know, to be able to get wet. Okay, what are we gonna have? Let's have a lube available. Let's have a conversation with your partner. Hey, listen, before you could maybe just do X, Y, or Z and I got wet pretty quickly. Now I still want you to do X, Y, or Z, and you might need to grab the lube that's on the nightstand as well. There's nothing wrong with that. We use things all throughout the day to help us. Why would we not also have things to help us make the sexual experience one more comfortable? Who wants to have dry sex? That's not fun for either person, but also more pleasurable, more enjoyable. But again, we need to talk about it. Most movies don't show the lube on the nightstand.

unknown 34:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

So yeah. I mean, again, and again, I'm gonna repeat myself, it's psychoeducation. Both people in the relationship can read what does change in a woman's body as she goes through perimenopause, menopause. What is it about my husband's erections possibly not staying, you know, hard as long as they used to be? And we're gonna first think it's us. My wife is not getting as wet because I must not be as good of a lover anymore. My husband isn't staying hard as long because he must have just watched porn. Could those be real reasons? Sure, but probably not. Our bodies are changing. We, my my daughter, I have two, you know, I have an 11-year-old and a 16-year-old. My daughter, both of them are going through their things. Our bodies are changing. We almost embrace it and welcome it when it's puberty. Why don't we embrace it and welcome it when it's the later stages of hormonal cycles? Yeah. So it's got to start with being honest about what's going on and really coming up with a plan and making the accommodations that are probably necessary now, not every time, but maybe sometimes to have those experiences not be like they were 30 years ago, because that may not be the case, but that can at least be better than they currently are.

Mary 35:36

Yeah, you're so right about education, because the first thing we do when something changes is think, oh, I'm broken or something's wrong with me. Yeah. And really it's not. Um, so yeah, I think that part is really important. And you mentioned grief. And I think that is important because we will get stuck on where we think we failed. And sure. Yeah. And you also talked about um that most issues have a lot to do with cogniz cognition or how we're thinking about it or emotions. So the more you worry, the drier you're gonna be.

Confidence, Attraction, And Aging

Fun, Novelty, And Sex Toys

SPEAKER_02 36:14

It's a it's yeah, it's a negative feedback loop. I had a new client yesterday, male 32, on Viagra. Whether I agree with it or not is another conversation on Viagra because he's having a hard time maintaining an erection. Therefore, he's having a hard time ejaculating, and he and his wife are trying to get pregnant. And let's be honest, if they were just having sex, it's one thing. If she's trying to get pregnant, yes, he needs to be able to, you know, have an orgasm, ejaculate. So he is so in his head. He is an analyst, he wakes up, he's the from the moment he wakes up, everything is solving a problem, everything is methodical, everything is analyzing. How would you expect him to then shut that off for the 30 minutes, whatever it is that he's trying to be intimate with his wife? I get it. But he has to. There needs to be a way for him to separate his work brain from his relaxation, you know, passionate sensual brain. So we we discussed that yesterday in certain ways and you know, specific ways to go about that. But if we are in our heads and telling ourselves certain things, we go down that rabbit hole. And once we start down that rabbit hole, boy, is it hard to get out. Whereas we can say maybe the thought, oh, I am not as hard as I would like to be. I am not as wet as I would like to be. Recognize the thought, accept the thought. More importantly, what are you now gonna do about it? Not, well, I'm not as hard as I want to be. I'm not gonna get hard at all, may as well stop having sex now. I'm a failure. Like, no, don't go down that rabbit hole. Just accept what is happening and let's turn it around. What are our options? And back to this client yesterday when I said to him, your sexual dysfunction currently isn't just yours. It's yours and your wife's together. So you too need to have a conversation about it. And he's like, I never thought of incorporating her. So what the reason he said that was because I said, What is your plan B when you guys are intimate if you get soft? And he's like, Well, we just stop. I go, and then what? And he goes, we go to sleep, we get up and go about our day. I said, What if there were other options? What if there was, let's sit and talk for a minute. Maybe you could touch me in a way that might turn me on. Maybe I can just not worry about my penis for the next five minutes and focus on you. There's more than just the option of, well, it's not working. So I guess we gotta jump ship and do something else. And he's like, I never thought about that. We never discussed other things we can do when this happens. So hopefully that's, you know, what they'll do. And sometimes by just stepping away from the situation and trying to be calm about the situation, allows it to not be a problem anymore. Yeah. And I don't like saying the word problem, but just accepting what's going on, they could just lay there and have a conversation, have an intimate, vulnerable emotional experience. He could get hard just from that because he sees she's here with me. She's not mad, she's not, you know, getting up and leaving. She is in this moment with me. Wow, look what that's doing to my body. And that could be enough for him to then get hard in them to have amazing sex. You never know. You don't know unless you try.

Mary 39:40

Yeah. And what strikes me about that is so often people think they're in the sexual experience alone. Like he's all up in his head thinking about this. And it's like, well, you're right there with someone else and you're naked. And so you do have a partner, like seriously, a partner in the endeavor.

Finding Help: How To Start Therapy

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting to me. I've been doing this for 20 plus years. I will have a couple in front of me, and man or woman, woman, woman, man, man, doesn't matter. But partner one will say, I'm not sure how to ask my partner, blah, blah, blah. And I'll say, they are sitting right next to you. Just ask, you just asked, say that. Or how do I tell my partner X, Y, or Z? And they describe it. And I say, You just did, but look at them and say it. So it's it's so interesting where, you know, a lot of people, again, back to that example yesterday, don't think something is an option because they've been doing it their way for so long. We get stuck in patterns. We get stuck in what feels safe to us, even if it doesn't feel good, safe because it's what we've been doing, it's what we're used to versus change is hard. So I speak about little itty bitty steps. We're not gonna cross the finish line tomorrow. A marathon is one step at a time. Um, and it's slowing down. And a lot of people want results right away. Look at the world we live in. You know, it's swiping right, it's getting food delivered five minutes later. I'm amazed when I order something from Amazon at 10 a.m. and it's at my door at two. Like, how did how did that even happen? Right. So uh we've got to slow down.

Mary 41:25

Well, and I well, you mentioned Viagra, and I think that is one of those things where when there is an issue, it's like, oh, I can just take a drug. It's like, well, no, probably the issue is, you know, emotional or anxiety or something else that if you just take the longer route, you got a permanent, more permanent fix to it because rarely it's physical, right? When it's ED, it's rarely physical.

Closing And Listener Support

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Correct. And in most cases, like it was with this man yesterday, he masturbates and has no problem getting hard, staying hard, and having an orgasm. So that's the first question I ask. You know, is your sexual dysfunction in all areas of life? And, you know, and also now in his case, it's not just with his current wife in the past. We didn't go into detail. He has also had performance anxiety with other partners. So, yes, that makes sense. It's not gonna just go away, even though it's your wife and you love her and you're trying to have a child with her. Again, years of our minds and bodies telling us a certain thing doesn't go away overnight. So, um, and I don't want him to get used to Viagra anytime he feels the pressure to need to perform, especially to get his wife pregnant. Um, so that'll be saved for session two or three, but just letting him know how much of dysfunction is mental. And I'm not here saying there aren't real physical, sexual disorders. There absolutely are. I'm not a doctor. I I do the talk piece of it, the physical blood work, hormones, you know, all of that is is referred out. But um so much of it is just learning the language and then being able to speak it.

Mary 43:13

Yeah. And so that brings me back to the woman who's been, you know, in a relationship for a long time. Things have changed, her body has changed, the kids are out of the house, she wants no part of sex. I'm thinking if she's empowered to start to express herself, describe her experience, talk about how it feels different for her, that may really change her maybe desire to want to explore different things sexually again.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Absolutely. And the biggest question is when did it change? And is it really that you do not want to be sexual? Which again is fine if that is the case. Or I just haven't been able to prioritize myself in my body for 20 years. I've been busy raising kids and working full. Time and driving carpool. So being in my body and being sexual has been 17 on the list. And I don't get past 10 if I'm lucky. So again, the first question is do you want this to be part of your life? Yes or no? And then we're going to go down a different route if the answer is yes versus if the answer is no. And a lot of times it actually is yes. It's not, I don't want to be sexual. I want nothing to do with my partner. It's, it's been so long, my body has changed so much. I don't even know what I want. Um, and something I start with is the place that people, women, are naked and by themselves, ideally daily, is in the shower. So I say to them, as many details as you want to give me, as little details as you want to give me, what is an experience like for you when you take a shower? And they think it's like the silly, they look at me like it's the silliest question. And they're like, Well, what do you mean? I get in the shower, I get the shampoo, I do this, I do that, and then I'm out in five minutes. I'm like, okay, so it's rushed. They're like, Well, I'm not spending 20 minutes in there. And I said, why not? I said, enjoy the feeling of lathering your hair. Smell the coconut body wash that you're putting on your legs before you shave. You know, I said, that is an opportunity to be extremely vulnerable with your body. You're by yourself and you're naked. I said, if you want to do more than that, go to town. But I'm not even asking that. I'm just saying, when is the last time we have looked at our bodies or touched our bodies and just been very present, even for five seconds? We are so quick to take a shower, get dressed, take off our clothes, put on our new outfit. I don't think most women stop and look at themselves in the mirror. And if they do, they're looking at their chest. They're not looking at their vulva. You know, it's not a penis, it's not an outer thing to look at. We've got to really stop and and and explore it. And most don't. So it's it's where is your comfort level with your body? And again, starting very, very slowly.

Mary 46:10

Slowly because I think we when our bodies change, we don't want to look at them. So then we think, well, nobody else is gonna want to look at them, or I don't want to show them to somebody else. And so you're I want to get to your recommendations, and I'm gonna guess Emily Nagoski's book, Come As You Are, is in there? Yeah, because she is all about like look at yourself, take a mirror and look at yourself, because it's all about like getting comfortable and figuring out, because some women will say, I'm for I for sure know they're listening to this and thinking, Well, I don't even know what I like because I've had so many experiences that didn't feel good.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Yeah. Yeah, and just like anything else, if you go to a restaurant and have a bad experience, depending on how bad of the experience it is, if you got four if you get food poisoning, you may never go back to that restaurant. Meanwhile, if you went to the restaurant and you were really looking forward to ordering a certain thing on the menu and they happen to be out of it, you'd be disappointed, but maybe you'd go back and try the restaurant again. So, again, we need to be patient. We need to know what we like, what we don't like. We're willing to switch up what we order, so to speak, but it's got to start with knowing our own body. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that people don't have a type. People have a type. And there are people where after years, if their partner has gained weight or their skin has changed, or they don't dress as, you know, beautiful as they did in the beginning, and they've kind of let themselves go. There are some partners who would have a hard time with that. Right or wrong, that exists. Most people, though, that I've met and worked with, they love their partners, whether they've gained 10 pounds or 20 pounds, whether they, you know, have new marks on their skin or not. It is the confidence of their partner that is attractive to them. And some people will find their 50-year-old, 20-pound heavier wife more attractive than they did 20 years ago because they've gained the confidence over the years. They've learned to know who they are over the years, and that is a turn on for them. But if we aren't comfortable in our bodies, we're certainly not going to be confident. And then how are we showing up to a sexual moment with that? Yeah. Chances are we're either not showing up to the sexual moment or we're showing up a version that's not our true selves and we're faking it literally and figuratively, you know, for those sexual moments. And then we feel bad and it's not what we want. So let's stop doing that.

Mary 48:45

But again, it's going to take time to change that narrative. Yes. So time is important. One more thing we didn't mention that I just want to kind of put out there is it should be fun. Like it should be fun.

SPEAKER_02 48:54

And I think you so we are taught as kids to get dirty, to fantasize, to have fun, to try new things. Why do we not do that as an adult? Especially with sex. And I lately I've been talking with a lot of clients about sex toys. And my definition of a sex toy is anything that is added to a sexual experience that will make it more enjoyable. Could a sex toy be a vibrator? Of course. Can a sex toy be, you know, a butt plug? Yes. But guess what? A sex toy can also be. A sex toy can also be, I was talking to a client the other day. Her homework was to go around her house and go on a scavenger hunt and find five things that she could bring into a sexual experience. And she's like, what do you even mean? And I said, Well, first thing that comes to my mind is a rolling pin. I said, most people have a rolling pin in their kitchen from, you know, baking. I said, what is stopping you from using that rolling pin? I said, you may not use it in the kitchen after this, but you know, what is stopping you from using this rolling pin and having it go up and down your back, having it go up and down your arm? I I kind of made a joke. I go, and you could even take the handles on the end and insert those in a body part if you want to. But my point is anything can be a sex toy. Music is a sex toy. A candle is a sex toy because, in my definition, it's adding to the experience. Yeah. But we don't talk about those things. It's okay, we're having sex. It's gonna start in this position, then I'm gonna do this, then they're gonna do that, then we're gonna be done. That's not fun.

Mary 50:36

No.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

So yeah, bring the fun back, bring the silliness, bring the flirting, and try new things. Novelty makes a big difference, especially when you've been with that same person for so long.

Mary 50:50

Well, now, Carrie, every time I make pie dough and I roll out the door, I'm gonna, I'm gonna think of you. Okay. So let's wrap this up a little bit. So I want you to tell us again where people can find you. But also if somebody's listening and they're thinking, I could never go to a sex therapist or I really want to try this, but I'm afraid, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Go for it. Be afraid. That's okay. Fear isn't a skip, you know, fear isn't a bad thing. Um, but I would encourage if somebody does want to go to speak to someone specifically about sex, it is nice to go to a sex therapist specifically. Now, any therapist can call themselves a sex therapist. And I'm not dissing those who have not gone the extra education and clinical route like I did, but I do believe there is something to be said about someone who is either asex certified like I am, the American Association of Sex Educators, Counselors, and Therapists, or at least someone who has vast experience and knowledge in this realm because it is very personal to talk about. Um, and the best way to get a hold of me is my website. My website has everything that you need to know. It's my name, Carrie Green, LMFT.com, K-E-R-I, Green Like the Color. Um, but yeah, I think having the conversation is a starting point. And I think a lot of people, whether they've been in therapy or not, feel like, well, if I go see a therapist, it's gonna cost me a ton of money. It's gonna be the next five years of my life. It doesn't have to be that way. So look online, see what's out there for you, and and take, take the first step. Talk about it. That's the first step.

Mary 52:26

Yeah. And I think as a fellow therapist, we are very familiar with people that are not quite sure. They're a little nervous, or you know, that's what we're trained to kind of address in the first part of that. And I also think we will put money toward, you know, a new purse or a pedicure or exactly and investing in therapy is like forever, you know, it's like it changes, it can change you forever.

SPEAKER_02 52:52

So absolutely, absolutely. And I always say at the end of the day, we are responsible for our decisions, we prioritize what's important to us. And if someone has been struggling with their thoughts around sex for 15 years and it's not worth it to them to invest in a therapist, but they're going shopping every week, then that's their choice. I'm not gonna say it's right or wrong. They just have to accept and be accountable for that choice. So, yeah, sex therapy is becoming more common. Um, and I am always grateful and again mentioned to my clients that the fact that they took the first step to even reach out and be willing to talk about it is huge. That is huge.

Mary 53:35

Well, thank you, Carrie, for being here. It was a great conversation. Thank you. I appreciate it. And I want to thank everyone for listening. So, you know, my geriatric cats love treats, and they have made me promise to use any monetary support from listeners to buy them more of those squeeze up cat treats. So if you want to support the show and make sure my kitties get plenty of yum yums, please click the support the show link in the show notes. And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are.