Navigating the Blended Family: Tips for Step-Parenting

Amy Stone champions adults navigating the complex journey of step-parenting by providing practical tools for communication, boundary-setting, and family harmony. As the creator of Step Parent Success School and host of The Art of Imperfect Adulting podcast, she shares her expertise on breaking free from linear life expectations and building meaningful blended family relationships.

• Approximately 1,300 new stepfamilies form every day in the United States
• Almost half of adults will identify as step-parents at some point in their lives
• Happiness is not necessarily tied to specific family structures or traditional paths
• Step-parents should respect previous relationships while building new family connections
• Having clear household standards matters more than who delivers the disciplinary message
• The "words and trees" exercise helps define roles and relationships in blended families
• When faced with "you're not my mom/dad," validate the statement before reframing the issue
• Repair mechanisms are more important than perfection in family relationships
• Communication should focus on curiosity rather than judgment
• The "power pause" helps assess what's really happening before responding

To connect with Amy Stone, visit imperfectadulting.com or stepparentsuccessschool.com, where you can sign up for her email list to learn more about her courses and coaching opportunities.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome to No Shrinking Violets
• 4:27 Amy's Journey and Imperfect Adulting
• 8:22 Breaking from Linear Life Paths
• 16:23 Navigating Step-Parent Relationships
• 23:25 Identity and Loyalty in Blended Families
• 36:05 Communication Strategies for Blended Families
• 47:48 Repairing Relationships and Finding Resources
• 59:59 Closing Thoughts and Call to Action

Transcript

Mary: 0:05

Welcome to no Shrinking Violets. I'm your host, mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner. I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives. We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms. It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish. Let's dive in. Hey, violets, welcome to the show. Before I start, I wanted to give a thank you to Carol Ann for her fan mail comment. She said another incredible episode. Thank you for including info about how diet, exercise and joy can help women navigate menopause and beyond. That was from episode 22, where I talked to Jane and Mary Ellen about all things hormones and menopause, and for me, hearing from listeners is like getting an extra shot in my dirty chai uplifting and so good.

Mary: 1:07

Okay, so, as some of you know from past shows, I remarried less than three years ago. I never had children of my own a story for another day but my husband has two sons. Throughout my dating life, I had always been hesitant to date a man with children. Part of that was due to my experience working with children of blended families when I was a school counselor, and part of it was simply because I wasn't sure I wanted the additional complications that would come with navigating the myriad of issues that could include conflicts with exes, confusion with parenting roles and the impact on a growing relationship of prioritizing children. I know directly from children how hard it is and I would have both wanted to ease that transition but also set boundaries of my own. It felt so complicated that I just chose not to date men with children under 18, which for most of my dating life was every man with children. I remember when I learned my now husband had two children, I was actually excited because, being older now, I wanted to have children, to connect to children that weren't children because they're both adults, out of college and living on their own. Let's just say I simplified things quite a bit in my life with grown stepchildren fantasy. What I will say is that my stepsons and I don't love that word, but we seem to lack something better are sensitive, caring and wonderful men and our blended family issues were nothing beyond what is probably typical in any relationship adjustment to a new job, a new neighborhood, a new marriage. So, depending on family dynamics, needs of the children and whether they themselves will need to navigate step-siblings and how stable their relationship within the couple is. It can be really complex, and blended families are more and more common. The Bureau of Statistics reports that 1,300 new step-families are formed every day. My guest today has lived this experience. She also created Step Parent Success School, where she leverages her knowledge and lived experience to help others navigating the windy road of step parenting.

Mary: 3:15

Amy Stone is an author, coach and creator of the Art of Imperfect Adulting, where she champions adults navigating life's rich complexities. Perfect Adulting, where she champions adults navigating life's rich complexities. Through her engaging interview-style podcast and vibrant online community, she empowers individuals to embrace nonlinear life journeys and continuous personal growth. She's a mom, a stepmom and fun fact a seven-time Ironman finisher who bakes sourdough bread. Amy combines lived experience with practical guidance to foster authentic personal development. Welcome to no Shrinking Violets, Amy.

Amy: 3:51

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Mary: 3:54

Okay, so one thing that I love about this podcast is talking to women who have been through so many different things that actually help them to end up creating a life and impacting the world in ways they never imagined or that weren't necessarily part of their plan. So can you talk first about what were some of those flashbulb moments or like times in your life that you feel contributed to not only developing your own podcast, but also just the general work that you do today?

Amy: 4:27

Oh, what a great question. So true story I got my first FCC broadcasting license when I was in middle school and my father was in the television industry and I studied journalism. So the tie for me, like from Amy, as like a little girl to Amy who sat down in front of a microphone, felt very direct. For me it feels like something I've always been doing and at the same time surprised the daylights out of many, many people, like how did you know how to do that, like what did you know how to do?

Amy: 5:00

And so I am a person I have realized I would not have known this about myself as a youngster. But I'm a person that if you drop me on a desert island all by myself, I would go and figure out what's going on and write up a little newsletter and magazine for all of the coconuts and abandoned palm trees on the island. It's just sort of the way I do things. My first podcast was in 2016. My hobby is Ironman, triathlon and marathon running and I was like I know all these people who have these amazing stories. Let me just tell them. And round about the third episode, maybe the 10th, somewhere in there, somebody actually called me back and they were like what is the point of this podcast? And I was like I don't even know. And I did that for a couple of years and it had a huge audience, which was crazy, but it didn't have a focus in terms of a business and so, after lockdown, I did close that down.

Amy: 5:59

My life story intertwines, as so many of ours do, like our actual lived experience eventually becomes some of the fact that I think that I have realized that the idea of the traditional path where we go to school, we get a degree, we get an approved job, we get married, we have kids, picket fence, we raise those kids, we retire and we care for the grandkids and those things, automatically equal happiness may have been false advertising in a lot of ways, but also it just may never have been reality.

Amy: 6:37

It may be the two things may not actually be as created as linked as many of us felt like they were, and I think that the disconnect of that's something that we still feel a lot of pressure to do.

Amy: 6:44

We internalize it and we think that we've done something wrong when it's not working versus the reality that I don't actually know very many people who followed that, and so telling the stories from people who are going through experiences of, hey, yeah, that's not what my life looked like, and here's what it did look like, and here's what it did look like and here's what I did it fills a gap in terms of these are experiences and not academic texts. I'm not showing up with somebody else who is a traditional expert in terms of a professional or things like that, saying this is how you should do it. It's the story of how I did do it and what I experienced. And that's not to discount how important did do it and what I experienced, and that's not to discount how important professionals are. They're very important. But it's also very helpful to just hear people say you know, I never thought they were going to fire me and they did and I'm still standing.

Mary: 7:36

So, yeah. Yeah, well, and it's really interesting because I spent a lot of my career working with high school and college students and, of course, more currently. I mean, I'll tell you, the first time I heard the word adulting, it was my college students using that word and I think at the time I was like, well, what do you mean? Like, why is that a concept? And as I really kind of looked closer at what was my experience growing up, because I am late 50s.

Amy: 8:08

Okay, I'm early 50s, I'm 51.

Mary: 8:09

Okay. So I think back then we believed it was more linear. I think kids now and I say kids I'm including, you know, even early 20s, but I think kids now realize it's not linear. They still feel the pressure. I think think kids now realize it's not linear. They still feel the pressure, I think. But you know, even as having a background in psychology, those stages of adulthood were very linear, you know like you you navigate that adolescence and then you find your partner and then you have a career and it's you know it.

Mary: 8:41

first of all it was predicated on men, not women, because it didn't really include, you know, the parenting part in there. But yeah, so I think that we're starting to actually recognize publicly that all of that linearness that there's a right way to become an adult and you hit 18 and all of a sudden you know how to do everything and it's seamless, is not true.

Amy: 9:09

Not true. And then when you add in the concept of enjoyment and happiness and loving your life, which many people think is a very American idea, and so you know that is what it is. But there's like almost a sinking feeling when people feel like, because there are parts of life that are linear, like there's a truth to your options for grad school. Are, you know, determined by how well you do in undergraduate school, like when you're within that system, that is linear, right. The part that's not necessarily true is that you have to do that to be successful, right. Like we all know people who dropped out of school, who didn't go to school and are successful, and I think that part of the illusion has been widely discredited, almost too much. There's a whole campaign of people who are like. You know, university is bad and I for one believe that. You know, I don't need my air conditioning repairman to have an engineering degree, but I do actually really want my surgeon to have gone to medical school. That's sort of where I weigh in, and so there's that. But when you add in the happiness, the concept of a linear path didn't take into account, like you said, it didn't take into any. It was a very, very whitewashed men, you know, professionals, sort of thing. But also it completely devalues the experience of the moment, and so that creates this sensation. I kept hearing the same story, and I hear it more often than I ever did before, but it was like I thought that if I did this then I would be happy. And this dropping the linear path is really valuing.

Amy: 10:43

It's like it's not a when I do this then I'll be happy, it's a find a path where I'm doing things that I enjoy enough to be happy. You know so sure, sometimes there are many things where I've worked really hard and I've got grit so that I can get to something that I want to do and I enjoy it. But taking a second to evaluate, do I actually enjoy this? I mean, how many people do you know, who women specifically who went to law school only to discover that they don't like being a lawyer? They may have really enjoyed law school, but then they go into being a lawyer and like, oh my God, what have I done? You know I don't know what it is about that because I'm not a lawyer, but I know dozens and dozens of people who are like, wow, this is not what I wanted to do and I think like a gut check there is. Do I want to do this Because the linear path ties you in. It's like I'm committed, I can't change.

Mary: 11:39

Yeah, yeah, and I would see it too with my college students. When they're expected to choose a major when they're 18 and then get into college and first of all, often, as you're saying, your career is nothing like your coursework. Right, but they'll start to learn more and more about engineering or accounting or whatever it might be, and they think I don't really like this, but I don't want to change now because I'm going to lose my credits. So I think it's that willingness to say nothing is a mistake. It's a learning experience.

Mary: 12:12

And now you have that, but we, you know, of course you're paying for credits, and so that's a whole. That's a whole thing in itself.

Amy: 12:18

It's a whole thing. We so I've got four kids in our family, two stepkids and two kids. The youngest is going to start college in the fall. So I've been through that process three times. I've got one who's still in school. Kids don't know enough about what the options are to make that decision, and the layers of that problem are deep and complicated, right.

Amy: 12:45

So early on I was in some assembly where the guy said if you ask high school sophomores where they want to go to school, they all name like the same 10 schools. That's because that's all they've ever heard of, right? There are 5,000 colleges in the United States, but they'll all name the same 10. Most of them are not going to go to any of those schools because they're highly exclusive, right? And that's a reflection of that. If you ask a college freshman what is their job, I bet you they name one of 20 things. It's like doctor, nurse, engineer, lawyer. You know all the main things. And what's wild is there are millions and millions of different jobs and they're changing the top jobs I saw. So now I have somebody who's into college. There's two interesting facts. One of the tours we did in Colorado, the registrar gave a presentation. She said they expect for kids that are starting college now to have 30 different jobs in their lifetime. That seems like a lot, I'm going to say, but that is what she said. So that is wild, like that is what they're expecting. And the other thing is that I saw a graph that was like you know, jobs that kids in high school now that they want to have. None of those jobs even existed. You could not be a YouTuber when I was studying media in college. Youtube wasn't there, it didn't exist. And so you know it's a really interesting dynamic process and I do think that university, at least in the United States, is a flawed process. It's a flawed process and I say that coming.

Amy: 14:23

I'm very happy with the degree I got and I knew so. I went to college from 91 to 96. Right about 95, I knew that the jobs that I thought I was training for basically didn't exist. So one of my very first classes in the journalism school, my professor said Linotype guys, the people who lay out the little grids for where the letters are in newspapers these jobs have existed for thousands of years. They will always exist. This industry is never changing. By 95, they were being laid off by the thousands because the industry had been digitized and it was like, literally, it was like the jobs we thought would always be there weren't there anymore, and that was scary at the time. But I graduated already, having had that thought process that the skills that I had were not actually job descriptions. So being able to write and craft a message and communicate, those were the things that I knew how to do and I could apply them in a bunch of different places.

Mary: 15:21

Yeah, yeah. So I'm going to try to take this and take an off ramp and bring it around to the topic that we had planned to talk about today.

Amy: 15:30

Which was in college.

Mary: 15:31

Which was in college. But you know, I think what I can segue with is if you decide that college is not for you after you start, there's nothing wrong with that, you know. Again, it's information. If you decide that the relationship you thought was going to be for your whole life and the person you had children with doesn't last, that's fine. You need to decide at the time with who you are now, what works for you, and we make decisions based on what we know at the time and I truly believe there's no mistake. I think it's. You know, sometimes there's a poor decision, but we always get information. So I know you are a step-parent and I know you work with step-parents.

Mary: 16:14

So, what I would like to start with is for people who maybe are just embarking on you know dating again. You know'll look at women in midlife. Sometimes they're back in this situation with kids of their own. I've talked to guests like this or even younger people who are starting to be in a situation where they're encountering more and more and I'll say men, because typically women listen to this podcast but more and more potential dates that have children.

Amy: 16:50

What do you think people should know or consider before dating a man or woman who has kids. So there's a lot there. Right, I was. So you gave a statistic about how many blended families they say are being created, which I thought was really interesting. The data on blended families is complicated because we don't actually ask on the census about step-parents, and so there is data. There are people who give it. A lot of it comes from organizations that are like divorce lawyers, family things, religious organizations, faith-based organizations, so it is what it is. One of the data points that I use is that they estimate that four out of ten adults at some point in their life will identify with the term step-parent. It's a lot. The other thing that's really interesting to know is that we segment adults into parents and non-parents, as these really really things, and the majority of the resources for adults are designed for parents, which is interesting when you look at almost half, like they're the minority. More than half of the adults in the population don't actually ever become a parent, and so it's very close. So it's distinction without a difference, but it's really crazy how many resources we create for parents and we don't for adults.

Amy: 17:55

I was extremely naive when I began my journey as a step-parent and I didn't know it, and I think that that's really common, I got to admit. I think that most people are like it'll be fine, like, even if you're aware of the historic social like stigma of stepmom, because everybody is the wicked stepmom narrative is so deeply ingrained in the story of womanhood that, even if you think it's not impacting you, it might be, it definitely was for me. I had an idea's not impacting you, it might be, it definitely was for me. I had an idea that I was like I'm nice, they're nice. What could go wrong? Nothing hugely went wrong, but it was hard. It's a very intense adjustment, especially if the kids are little. Your kids are adults. The thing that I think that people definitely want to know is and this has the benefit of 25 years of distance I didn't know any of these things.

Amy: 18:54

The thing I say to people now that I didn't realize then is, as I went through this, as we were merging these families, every decision that I made came down to a singular choice. I want to be really clear. I didn't know that this was a choice I was making, but every single step of the way, I really had a choice about whether or not I was going to be bringing stress and conflict into the new family or whether or not I was going to be part of creating something healthy and dynamic. Right, that's not always an obvious choice, and conflict and drama is not always bad Like so, because you can go through life lying down like a doormat and you're not going to be happy. So I'm not saying that, but really seeing myself as a part of the equation overall and I can look back and think about the things that really made the shift in how we functioned. Those were times where I either spoke up or didn't speak up in option of being a part of a healthy environment.

Amy: 19:53

I'll give you an example from early on, before I was even actually a stepmom, my parents were divorced. They lived in different states, so I had experience going between houses and houses experience going between houses and houses and my husband and his ex-wife they did not. So when I was dating my husband, I did not know either of them. When they were married I came into this relationship. Before that they had a new parenting agreement with specific dates and sharing and so on and so forth.

Amy: 20:20

My oldest stepson his birthday falls near Mother's Day. It was supposed to be the guy I was dating this weekend and, as the girlfriend, I piped up and said, oh my gosh, don't do that. Let her have the kids on Mother's Day and the birthday. We all live in the same town, right, it was not a big deal. And he said back to me, he said you have no right to say that. And I was like that's absolutely true. I, I was nobody Like, I knew I was like I mean, I was completely out of bounds and I knew it then. But anyway, he went to his ex-wife and said something like my girlfriend said I should let you have the kids for this weekend because it's the birthday and it's going to repeat all the time, and so on and so forth. And that unknowingly set the tone between me and his ex-wife that I wasn't going to be confrontational with her against her agenda, and that's an example of what I'm saying.

Amy: 21:14

The other thing that came up years later was that somebody else outside the relationship pointed out that I added to the relationship the reality that their terms were negotiable, going forward, and that they should be willing to find a way to negotiate. And I think that also came from the fact that I had lived it and because when parents get a separation agreement, it's what we call a snapshot. It's a snapshot of the life at that time. Five years in the future, it might be completely different. And figuring out ways to work with each other and move that forward without involving the entire legal system and your retirement budget is a helpful thing yeah, helpful thing. So that's one of the things that I think that is helpful for people to know that that is the decision.

Amy: 22:00

The other thing that I share with people a lot is I mean I offer people that I think you can be a happy step-parent. I really do. I've worked with enough people now to know that there are times where you're looking at a situation that you don't want to be a part of and that wasn't my situation. But I do, at this time, believe that there are some landmines in family situations that are really hard to get over. And, as a step-parent, there's a point where you have a choice right you are choosing to join this family.

Amy: 22:35

So if you're looking at a situation where you've got incarceration, active substance abuse, serious health issues and mental health struggles within the family and you have not already bought a house or had children with those people. You do actually have a choice there because it can feel like you're already committed and so I offer that to people, that that is a choice. Once you have children with somebody, you're connected. You're connected. Even if you divorce them you're connected. But before that you do actually have a choice, and I did not. I lucked into the fact that none of that was in this family. I did not research that as much as I could have.

Mary: 23:15

Yeah, yeah, you bring up some good points, because I think I'm saying about that snapshot you know when a custody agreement and also I think a lot of it depends on where are the children in their development.

Amy: 23:28

Oh 100%.

Mary: 23:29

So if they have to move schools or they're just at a stage of life that there's a lot adolescence, you know there's a lot happening. You know, I think, being aware of what is a, I'll say, permanent situation when is it something like you're talking about? That these are not easily solvable issues. You don't have control over. An addiction issue you don't have control over if there's something you know with an ex that's a mental health issue that creates chaos, continual chaos. Some of that might be. You know with an ex that's a mental health issue that creates chaos, continual chaos. Some of that might be. You know you're looking at my boundaries. You know I'm willing to sustain a little bit of. You know saying, okay, I need to prioritize children at certain points, but do you prioritize your own? You know your own mental health, your own ability to manage boundaries. So I think those are really good things to consider.

Amy: 24:24

Really good things to consider and one of the things. So, when I entered into my blended family, the set advice that people were giving me my husband, his ex-wife was to let the parents parent, and I was directly told by people that I should just not at all get involved. And when I work with step-parents and with families, that is not the way I teach it right. There are a million things that should not involve me, right A million million things. But anything that impacts my conditions for living should include me right, Because I think that if you subjugate yourself and you separate yourself and you design a framework within a family where one of the adults is treated as if they don't get to put feedback in or they don't get to participate, you have inadvertently or perhaps intentionally, created a second-class citizen within the house, and that's a terrible way to live, and so that's the way I teach that.

Mary: 25:26

Yeah, yeah. And I think there are times too where sometimes the children try to leverage that and so being able to recognize is my partner kind of walking that line between prioritizing our relationship at certain times and what the children need at certain times, and I think that's really hard for the biological parent to do.

Amy: 25:49

It's very, very hard. People come to me a lot One of the top questions they come to me. The people come and they say we have different parenting styles. That's the thing that they say, and I say absolutely, let's talk about it. By the way, this is true in every single family that I've ever met in my entire life. It is an illusion that there are two adults out there that agree on every single thing that happens in every single child's life. This is my opinion. If somebody else has data that does not match that, let me know. But this is not because you're a blended family. That's what I want to offer, in my opinion. What I offer is that.

Amy: 26:24

So people will say that the parent should be the disciplinarian. I think that that's probably factually correct, but what I will say is that, in practice, if a family agrees very much on what the house rules are and what the overall standards for how we're going to live together are, it doesn't actually matter who's delivering that message. The discipline is a bigger deal. When it's unclear to every single, all standards for how we're going to live together are, it doesn't actually matter who's delivering that message. The discipline is a bigger deal when it's unclear to every single person in the house. And the way I came to that was listen. Our kids know that the rules are different at grandma's house than they are at our house. They go to school those people are not their parents and they're instituting discipline and nobody is questioning them, right, like not anybody. But when you walk into the library, the rules are posted You're supposed to be quiet. It doesn't matter who's working in the library. They point to the sign and they're like hey, these are the rules.

Amy: 27:09

And so in a family, the real work that shows up, in that people's toes are being stepped on all over the place. But the real work is in coming together. It's not easy. The real work is in coming together and saying what kind of family do we want to be and how do we want to live together and how do we want to treat each other? Because when you don't agree on those things, or you just don't talk about it, or people have completely different ideas about how it's supposed to be, then there's all this chaos, right? So, like you've got the kids who are acting in the ways that they think they're supposed to, you've got the parents who have different ideas about what's okay and what's not, and nobody's talking to each other about it. And then you've got a stepmom who's like it's your job to tell them they can't talk to me like this. And everybody's like what are you talking about?

Mary: 27:52

Yeah, yeah. So it occurs to me that sometimes what a I don't know, even a newer stepmom or doesn't matter, I guess, on the age of the kids, whatever might hear is you're not my mom, yes, which is true. Yes, so if that's thrown out there, what are some good responses?

Amy: 28:15

to that. So my initial response was, as you heard me say, it's like that's true, and so there's a couple things there. The first thing is, if that stings, it's a good place to do a check about. Why does that sting? Like, what is it about you that is bothering you when somebody says that to you? If a kid from down the block walked up and said you're not your mom, you're like I know that and you move on, it's not something. So what is it about that person saying it to you that bothers you? What does it signify and why does it hurt? Because that's an internal thing to work on. This is an unbelievably common thing.

Amy: 28:57

The second thing I'll say is don't think that this doesn't happen when people are actually biologically related. Your own kids say to you all the time you're not the boss of me or you don't get to tell me what to do. So the root of this is challenging. Do you have the authority to say that? So those are the two background things that I'll offer as, like a understanding, which doesn't do anybody any good in the heat of the moment. In the heat of the moment, the technique is to validate the statement, to just really say to the person like I hear you saying that I'm not your mom and you have a mom. I understand that. I'm this like state your identity however people call you in the family. I'm dating your dad, I live in the same house as you, this is who I am and then reframe the issue at hand outside of that biological relationship. So it's like listen, I don't have to be your mom to tell you to clean up the milk you spilled on the kitchen, right? So that's the tool that gets you out of it. And seeing it as a control battle or an identity thing is really where this is One of the activities that I walk through with blended families that come to me I call it words and trees, which is a very, very simple activity, which is to sit down and identify who are the people in the family, what are their titles and what are their relationships.

Amy: 30:11

What do I call you? What do you call me? Who do I think of you? Who do you think of me? Sometimes it's very simple, it's five minutes, everybody's using the same words. But where deep, deep conflicts and fights break out in the first couple of years of blended families is often when there are disagreements or misunderstanding and miscommunications about this. If I think of the young children in my family as my stepkids and they think of me as that witch who's dating their dad, that's a mismatch, so we can talk about that. The one that is actually a little more common and harder to deal with is when you have people outside of where you're living, so you have an ex or a mother-in-law or an aunt or a sister or a friend who is feeding in titles and designations that are not favorable or unkind and you can't actually control those. So then the exercise becomes I know this person is saying these horrible things about me, what do I want to feel about it and how do I want to address it?

Mary: 31:11

Yeah.

Amy: 31:12

That's a hard situation. I will say that that's a hard situation, yeah.

Mary: 31:16

Yeah, so yeah, I think sometimes when there's a loss, like I don't want to lose another person, so I'm going to parrot what they're saying, or I'm going to believe that when they say this woman, as you're saying, is a witch that I don't want to look like, I like her, and sometimes I think kids do respond. You know, internally they might start to lean into it. Like you know, this person isn't so bad. But I think when they're hearing something else from someone who they've known their whole lives, it can be such a conflict for them to navigate.

Amy: 32:07

Yeah, there are a couple of things that I've learned about this, right. One thing that I think works really well with this is that and I think that a lot of times, communication between the family helps a lot, because if you don't talk about the titles that you want to use, it creates a gap where kids specifically but really anybody will fill it in with whatever they think or what they pick up from other places, right, and that's not just true for titles in the family, it's also true for other sort of things. If you don't talk to your kids about news, they are more likely to pick up things from school than rumor and friends. If you don't talk to them about the birds and the bees, they'll find out from their friends or YouTube, right. So that is one thing. That is like defining it and declaring it. Naming it and claiming it, as we would say, is very helpful, because it gives especially young kids, but also adults, something to rely on, right, it's structure.

Amy: 33:00

The other thing that is often more complicated is the reality of the loyalty bond, which is that kids do tend to feel very loyal to their biological parents, and the loyalty bond is something that I'm not you probably know much, actually more about it than I do but it breaks all of the things Like. It exists when people are no longer alive. It exists when they're not around. It exists when they've never actually known these people, somebody who's never even been in their lives. They can have a sense of loyalty, but there are tools to live with somebody and develop a strong relationship with respect to the original bonds. So the teaching technique that I use for people who are entering the family is to respect and honor every single previous relationship and then work on creating the new family construct that includes you, right. So really reassuring people and the experts in this in my experience are people who do adoption and foster kinship relationships Really really honoring with the kid and letting them know that not only do you understand that they have a relationship with this other person, but it's your job as an adult in the family to help them protect it and keep it, because you're another adult in their life. So then you become an ally and you can do that if that other person hates you. It's like listen, I know that you love your mom and I know that she thinks that I am the devil incarnate and I am not going to put you in a position to harm your relationship with this other person that you love. Right, and that can be really hard. This is things like I worked with a family where the ex did not want the step parents at high school graduation and this poor kid was in a spot where it's like I want my mom to be at my graduation, but then she says this other person can't have.

Amy: 34:55

And this is one of those things where you said prioritizing the children. I think it's the greatest gift that adults can do to give priority to the experience of the kids in a family. To be a kid it's not always easy and this, no, you shouldn't have to opt out of something like a graduation. But if you can put yourself in the mindset where you say, listen, this is your life, the child, and this is your experience, and I, because I love you, will take a step back.

Amy: 35:23

And just so that people don't think that I am just spouting about things that I have no knowledge of, one of our kids graduated during lockdown from a school and it was after lockdown, but it was like there were only two tickets to this graduation for this kid and there are all these grandparents and all these adults and all these things in this family, right, and here is this kid and he's so stressed out and he's like this is this huge thing that everybody's supposed to happen. And I was like, and he's talking to me and I'm like this is not even a question. I'm sorry, this is not even a question. Your parents go the rest of us watch on Zoom. I was like this is your graduation, they are your parents. I am happy to take a step back because this is your experience.

Amy: 36:07

Would I have loved to have been in person and seen him graduate. Yes, did I actually watch it on Zoom? No, the feed didn't work and if he listens to this, he'll know that I wasn't, but it just didn't work. I logged in. It was like, if he listens to this, he'll know that I wasn't, but it just didn't work. Like, I logged in and it was like no, and I never told him, because that also is his experience, but that's you know. I mean, it's not what I wanted, but it's what he needed.

Mary: 36:30

Yeah, and I think, remembering that when those things come up, it isn't about you.

Amy: 36:35

It isn't about us.

Mary: 36:41

It's about whatever issue is, you know, with that person that's saying it. There's an issue there, and so I think, being able to take a breath, just like when you said you're not my mom, that's not about you, there's way other, more complex emotional things being navigated, yes, yes. So I think also we've talked a lot about exes, but I think when a blended family happens because a parent died, that seems to me to have a whole other load of charged emotional things that assist with it, and I think we can tend to think, oh, it's easier because you're not dealing with the ex, it's not, it's not, it's quite the opposite. It's so complex and oh, it's not.

Amy: 37:19

It's not. It's quite the opposite. It's so complex and, yeah, it's really hard. It's really really hard. It's not something that I have personal experience with living. It's definitely something that I have personal experience with helping people walk through in a variety of ways. It's an interesting thing because the role of step-parent right is is vilified in almost every situation, including that one, which is crazy. But but that is also.

Amy: 37:47

There's like sort of a hero complex that comes for people who step into a family after a death, specifically men who step into a family after the death of a person. They step in as fathers. They are like honored on like a pedestal. It's really interesting, and women will often be spoken. They are like honored on like a pedestal. It's really interesting, and women will often be spoken of more favorably, like as they're doing virtuous work, they're raising these kids after they're, so on and so forth.

Amy: 38:08

It's a level of emotion that is tied to it. The relationship between the children and their parent does not stop when they die. It's just frozen in time, and often their relationship becomes colored by memory is what I'll say. You know more about that than I do, but we remember the people who are no longer with us through the lens of how we want them to have been sometimes, and that can be tough for the people who are living through it afterwards. Additionally, the people who are thereafter, so the stepmom or the stepdad who come into the situation they have like an obligation to honor and protect that relationship for somebody who they may not have known. Yes, and it's really complicated and the kids don't have any tools to deal with their love of that. The person is still there After the parent dies. We still light candles for them at weddings, we mention them at events. They aren't.

Amy: 39:05

People have different ways of including them in their lives, but it is a false idea that that person will not be an impact in your life as you move forward. And one of the things that I think is so interesting about that is that many, many years ago, I did a survey of all the people who were on my email list and I was like, hey, if you had a magic wand, what would be the one thing that you would do to change your life? And almost all of them came back and were like the ex would not exist or the children would not exist, and I was like, whoa, that is really wild, because that's the one thing that you can't do. It's not on the table as an option, and so I thought that was really sad. But the other things, I was like that is weird because it doesn't actually change. You don't realize that you're still going to be living through it, even if that person is not there, and that is a thing that I think is helpful as a solving tool as you move through what you're going to do with your own life.

Amy: 40:01

So there's a module in the Step Parent Success School, which I call it to stay or go, where I give people resources of deciding if they want to stay in the relationship or leave. None of them are mine. There are things that other people did their books and resources and worksheets to help you make that decision, but once you have kids with somebody, there are many ways that you're connected to that person, and so divorce doesn't solve some of those problems, right? That's also true with death. Death doesn't change some of those things, right? It doesn't change some of those things, and so thinking about whether or not the separation or how the separation actually changes your day-to-day life is significant, because people get stressed out and overwhelmed and overstimulated and they think, oh, the obvious solution here is leaving and creating this separation, but in a lot of ways sometimes that doesn't actually always solve the problem. It adds complexity in terms of more houses and more legal agreements and more expenses, but it may not actually solve some of the problems.

Mary: 41:01

Yeah Well, and you bring up a good point when a parent dies, that that relationship is frozen in time, and I think that is just our human nature. You go to a funeral. You don't hear people talking about the worst memories they have, and even if a kid had a lot of conflict with a parent that has died, that isn't necessarily than if the parent is still alive. Typically, I think, kids see conflict when parents divorce. Typically the kids are aware that there's something up. They realize there's a conflict If a parent dies and what the kid has seen is a connected, loving relationship and all of a sudden their mom or dad is gone and then the remaining parent now brings somebody else in. That is a way different field, emotional field for children to navigate.

Amy: 42:07

Yeah, and when we think about this, we always think about the young kids, right? So the good news in this is that folks who are therapists and counselors and religious advisors and all kinds of things like that they have a lot of experience in grief. There are a lot of people to help you walk through it. There's a lot of situations in life that that's not true, but grief is one of the things where if you, once you raise your hand, you say, hey, grief, there are people who can give you tools to walk through. That Children tend to should. We're happy. But the better situation is when the children outlive the parents. Right, that's what we want to happen. The harder situation is when the parents outlive the children, I think. But this also happens for adults.

Amy: 42:45

So one of my favorite stories to talk about this is, way before I was coaching step-parents, a friend of mine's father remarried. Right, he's in his 50s. He has a complete relationship with his mother. Right, they were married, she lived, she got sick, she died, all of these things. Time goes on. His father remarries, they spend the holidays together, they come back, he and I are having a conversation. All that's happening in the moment in my situation here is that my friend is trying to tell me what he did over vacation, what did you do over the holidays, and he's stumbling over the words to describe the people in his new family and he says, ah, is she my stepmom? Do I have to call this woman my stepmom? Like, who is she? And I'm laughing because it is hard, right, and I just said I just said I said, listen, you're an adult. I don't know that you're actually in the market for a new mom, but you can call her whatever you want. Maybe you could. Maybe here's a controversial idea Maybe you talk to your dad and his new wife about what they want you to call her, like, what you just have the conversation.

Amy: 43:50

But the idea that this is a children's only issue is is probably incomplete. In fact, the bigger incomplete issue that I think that we tend to neglect is the idea that this is actually a changing identity at several different stages. Like it's like not just when we think about it when a new person joins the family as a step-parent, but having these conversations of like who's in our family, how do we work together, what do we call each other? That probably happens at several different times. When you add a new baby. That one happens automatically. When children transition into teenagers and the adults are like, oh my God, who are these aliens in our house? That's a time to have that discussion. When your children get married and you have new people, that's a time to have that discussion. Absolutely All of those times are places when that happens, and releasing that idea that there is one singular path or one guaranteed way that this is going to happen is helpful, because when something goes against the idea of the plan, we're so quick to internalize that this is because I've done something wrong.

Amy: 44:56

My son got a divorce because I wasn't a good enough parent. I married someone who was divorced because I'm not a good enough person. My stepkids don't like me because I'm not good enough or funny enough. None of that is true. None of that is necessarily true. I mean, maybe it is, maybe you're a jerk, I don't know. But the better, easier way to find self-fulfillment in my experience, like what it required for me in terms of happiness, was releasing the idea that the only way to be happy was if a family looked a certain way, and so the idea that I give people is that your happiness as an individual is not actually as connected to the construction of your family, as you might think it is.

Mary: 45:35

Ooh, I like that. It's very empowering. It's very empowering, thank you. Yeah, you bring up too.

Mary: 45:41

A couple of times you've talked about communication and that's one of the hardest things for people to do, because I think we first of all it's kind of like, well, maybe it'll get better, I don't need to say anything, maybe it'll get better, let's just like see how it goes. But I think for me and what I've learned, you know, working with clients is when you start to feel something, if you have in your mind this question, that starts, I wonder, dot, dot dot. That's the time to start to speak up. Adult stepchildren or whatever you know you're calling them, I think, having the conversation of you know how's it feel when I ask you questions about your mom, just putting it out there or noticing that one person may have a much more difficult time allowing you to be more part of a family than another might. And that doesn't mean again that it's your fault or something's wrong with you or you're doing something wrong.

Mary: 46:40

I think what you're saying is recognize what's happening and most of it is not about you and how do you find those times to connect? What makes you, what brings you moments of joy? And recognizing. What script do I have in my head right now? Because it's probably a false narrative. And there are a lot of beautiful, rich things about blending a family. I think it can be a really beautiful thing, but I think it takes some. It takes skill and sometimes you need help to navigate it.

Amy: 47:11

A hundred percent and communication communication is hard for everybody. A sad part about that is that we don't train each other for interpersonal communication. We train each other for academic communication and that is a conditional relationship where the person that you're talking to is going to score and evaluate how you perform. So when we go into our adult relationships and we are having conversations with our partners with that same framework that my role in this conversation is to demonstrate that I'm smart enough to be here and be judged by you. That's almost always a fight and that is the way the majority of people communicate with their partners, which is crazy. But anyway, the Buddhist method is hard. Many Buddhists set a very high bar for this, so I don't represent that it's easy, but is the idea that you're accepting of the things that are happening around you, which is what you're saying like look around and become an observer of what's actually happening, and then the part where this comes into communication that I think is really actually helpful is trying to be curious, right? So when you have that inkling of like, I wonder that's a really powerful place to be and you may. It may lead to a conversation or it may just lead to a moment of pause and I call this, you know, the power pause which is where you stop and you're like what is going on? And I think that that should, in most cases, precede any conversation. What is actually happening right now? You and I are having a conversation, right? And then the other power tool that I'll offer to your audience which this comes from high conflict resolution which is you don't want to sandbag people with any sort of conversation. When you and I set up this interview, we were like hey, what time? What are we going to do? Right? So, even when things are going on, just the very, very power tool is to say hey, listen, I would love to have a conversation and be honest about what it is. I would love to have a conversation about porn, just to throw something there that is highly confrontational. I would love to have a conversation about porn, just to throw something there that is, like, highly confrontational. I would love to have a conversation about illegal drug use Input most, I mean, it's not usually going to be about that what we eat for breakfast, whatever it is right. And then say when is a good time to talk about that? Right, not now, but when is a good time to talk about it. Sometimes they're going to come back to you and be like let's talk about it now, okay, but the idea is it's not an attack, it's like I want to invite you to this conversation, and that is a very, very good tool in reducing the conflict, because it gives the other person a chance to prepare for the conversation.

Amy: 49:48

I learned this, by the way, from elementary school teachers who were like do not stop me in the hallway and ask me something under demand. And I was like, oh my gosh, but there's layers of it, because you're getting consent from them, you're giving them a chance to do it, you're putting the topic on the table. So there's other tools like that. But when people are like, I don't know how to talk, I don't know how to do this, you know it's like.

Amy: 50:11

You know people go through entire conversations, entire conversations in their head with other people that they won't have, because the scenario that they play out in their head is so inflammatory that they're like, oh, I can't possibly have it. And the reality is that some of the time not all the time if you actually started that conversation, what would happen is you would be like, oh my gosh, that's not at all what I was doing and you would realign and get on the same page and so setting up. That is why I have that as a starting point, and the other power tool is to only ever talk about one thing at one time, which is much harder.

Mary: 50:45

Yeah, those are very good tips and so I think, with that curiosity too, sometimes we start something and when it doesn't work, we just bear down and we try harder, and I think, sometimes leaning back and doing exactly what you're saying just take a breath, look at the situation, be curious about it. And I would also say, when you're entering into something that you think is going to be conflicted, a conversation that you're worried about, the first thing I always say is talk about what's really happening. Say, I'm nervous to approach this, but I think it's important I want us to talk about, like you're saying. So I think it's fine to acknowledge you don't have to act like you're not worried about it or you're not nervous to bring it up. I think the other person is probably feeling the same way.

Amy: 51:32

They could be. Yeah, so you're a therapist and you do this. I will say I'll throw in some self-depreciating stories so that the listening audience doesn't feel like they're alone in this. I was taught to use I statements in conflict. Right, I got that wrong until somebody corrected me. I was saying things like I think your kids are misbehaving, I think your kids should have better manners. The therapist was like that's not what we mean, amy. That's not what we mean, amy, that's not what we mean. And so I got that wrong. And it is supposed to be what you were talking about. This is how I am feeling. This is how I am experiencing. It's really sharing what you're going through.

Amy: 52:10

The other thing that people teach which I think is absolutely good is to try and talk about the actual problem and not the situation that you're in. That is very hard for a lot of people to do, because we're talking about things that are. There's a lot of emotion, there's a lot on the table, things feel very important and often in families, these things feel like they're high stakes. If I don't get involved, everything is going to fall apart, bridges burning, families destroyed, right. That is a time I will tell you where a third party, a neutral party, can be unbelievably helpful. That is a person who comes in and is like, yeah, why does this bother you? Like, why is this discussion important? It's not that you can't do that on your own People can do it but it is when somebody is very helpful. Like this is one of the stories I tell like a million times.

Amy: 52:59

I worked with a client who there was a conflict over breakfast potatoes. An adult kid ate the breakfast potatoes that were for the dad and the stepmom was like you need to move out. I mean, she was enraged. She was enraged for weeks and people kept telling her how could you be so upset about the potatoes? How could you be so upset about the potatoes? She was so fixated on the potatoes that she couldn't move past it.

Amy: 53:23

And then, when we worked together, it took a long time for her to be willing and ready and able to uncover what it was about the potato episode that was really bothering her. And you know people are like you shouldn't be so upset about potatoes. But that's, I think, a false narrative, because I think that we can all think of scenarios in our life where we are enraged by teeny, tiny things Enraged, you know, and it's hard to shift off of those. It's like, no, this shouldn't have happened and you should have known, and it should be better. And the wound is real, and the anger is real, and the experience is real, and so sometimes I guess what I'm saying is don't be so hard on yourself.

Mary: 54:06

if this is hard, it's hard for people who have training.

Amy: 54:08

It's hard for people who have training. You might think that it is the potatoes and it might be six months later. You're like God, it wasn't the potatoes.

Mary: 54:16

Right, it was the interpretation of the potatoes.

Amy: 54:19

Or like, or the, the, the over the months and months and years and years, of being in a position where you're providing and taking the load on for a family that has built up, and then some accidental thing tips you over and you explode Right, and that's the reality of living together with people. Families are complex. Living with people is hard, and so honoring the fact that it's not easy and giving yourself permission to do that is really good. One of the great things about family relationship research is the work of the Gottmans and their marriage lab from years and years ago, and they have that great thing that they found, which was the thing to look for is the repair, when people are coming back and repairing, and what's so amazing about that is that if you believe that and you choose to think about that, you are honoring the fact that you're going to make mistakes, and that's true with our partners, with our kids, our stepkids, our grandkids.

Amy: 55:13

Adults worry so much about being perfect in front of their kids, but it is the greatest example for the children in our lives when we walk up and we're like you know what? I messed this up and I'm going to be honest about it. I didn't handle it the way I would have liked to have handled it and I would like to come back and put this back on the table and let's talk about it. And you're being an example of them of an adult not being perfect, because most of us have this false narrative in our head that adults know what they're doing and newsflash we don't.

Mary: 55:45

Right. I mean, sometimes we do. I've got. I was hard on that, or I was. I need to go back.

Mary: 55:57

And so, to give a quick context, gottman, g-o-t-t-m-a-n. They, it's a husband and wife team and they've done a lot of research, a lot on marriage and some on family. So when you talk about a repair, it's when there's a little fracture or a conflict and you or the other person in the relationship turns back toward you to make a bid, make a bid of like they try to make it better, being open to that. Or, if you need more time, saying I hear you, I'm not quite ready, you know. And again, when you're the receiver, it's okay to say I'm not ready to talk about this right now, but how about in two days? Or let's go out for coffee.

Mary: 56:40

If it's an older you know it's your partner or an older child, how about if we grab a coffee in a couple of days and we can talk, or whatever it is, it's okay to be empowered that if you feel knocked back on your heels or you feel like I'm just not ready, I have too much emotion in front of this. I need some think time. It's fine to say that too.

Amy: 56:59

Yeah, and I, in my experience, these things are. These nuggets are little mini scripts that you write inside a family and you replay them over and over again. You teach them to each other. So this is like the agreement you have with your partner about how you're going to handle when you walk into a room and you don't know the other person's name. Like most people have that agreement with the person that they socialize with.

Amy: 57:20

It's like, hey, if I walk up and say this to you, then your line is this so that we can figure out who we're talking to, you can have five or six of those for conflict. It's like when you feel overwhelmed. It's like giving people a script, and the same thing works for how to start a conversation. Like you give yourself a script and you practice it, you get used to it. Then you can just roll it out in the moment. And so in our house I have one for stopping a conflict.

Amy: 57:51

Like if somebody is coming at me and I feel overwhelmed, I'm like, hey, I'm backing up. Like this is like I need a minute. I'm feeling overwhelmed, but you're going to design that based on who you are and what works in your own family and they don't always work, but they work a lot of the time. And then the other thing is how to initiate the repair, because not everybody is ready and willing to walk in and say I'm sorry, I apologize for the way I behaved before, especially if you feel like you were attacked and you were not in the wrong. So, having scripts that are more like I'm feeling like we're walking on eggshells, can we set a time to spend some time together and rehash this conversation, something like that?

Mary: 58:32

Well, Amy, you have given so many amazing little nuggets and tidbits to actually apply, and that's one of the things I love. I want people to leave after listening to an episode with things that they can actually do not sort of this lofty, just talking about this idea of blended family. So this has been really amazing. So where can people find you and your podcast?

Amy: 58:56

All right. So my name is Amy Stone and the name of my podcast is the Art of Imperfect Adulting. It is available on all the major podcast players and YouTube. There is a website that has all of the information imperfectadultingcom. If you are a part of a blended family, thinking about being a part of a blended family or how not to be a part of a blended family, Step Parents Success School is its own website, and that's where you can find how to get that course and also if you want to work with me directly. That information is in there too. So that's the world's longest domain stepparentssuccessschoolcom. And there's three S's in a row in the middle of that, which is probably a mistake in planning, but that's the way it is. So all of those places and I'm on social media and all of the things, but if you sign up to any of my email lists, then I begin to tell you about what I'm doing and how to connect with me and how to reach me, and that's the easiest way to start a conversation with me.

Mary: 59:53

Okay, and, of course, I will have links to both of those websites in the show notes, so no need to quickly try to write it down. You'll have it in the show notes. So, amy, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it.

Amy: 1:00:06

Thank you very much, mary, it was a pleasure.

Mary: 1:00:08

And I want to thank all of you for listening. If you have thoughts on today's show, please comment or use the link in the show notes to text me, and if you'd like to join my email community and get my weekly musings on how nature and my garden give me lessons about life, click the link in the show notes to sign up. And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant violet that you are. Thank you.